Black Caviar

[boncer34]

So yes a quality horse. Greatest of all time? Hardly.
Kingston Town, Phar Lap, Peter Pan (Who may have been better then Phar Lap), Might and Power and Saintly. All would run rings around the Diva.

Totally disagree. The Diva beat a lot of good horses over her career and won her last Cup as a mare carrying 58. I loved the way she'd stay back and unleashed her devastating run on the field. She is one of my all time favourites.

The point is you cant compare eras as the entire methodology for training horses was different. In Phar Lap era horses were given "tonics" which some think might have ended up contributing to his ultimate demise.

See I'm not denying she was a top notch horse. I'm just saying she's not the greatest of all time MH.

[boncer34]

I never said 'larger' win..I said easier. 8 wide on the bend under a hold...might have won by a length but horse that ran second was a two-time winner and second in a Caulfield Cup...

I am not going to argue this with you any further...I've been watching races VERY closely for 20 years and she was a champion. Maybe not in the "all-time" category as the immortals...but defintiely in the level below them...and far supeior to Saintly.

You actually said you've never seen a plate run so far out. Again. I repeat. Sunline 2000 had hers won a lot further out then the Diva's.

You're not going to argue further because you're now agreeing with me bar Saintly. I said not the greatest of all time. You've now agreed.

Happy to have that sorted.

[Choppy]

I never said 'larger' win..I said easier. 8 wide on the bend under a hold...might have won by a length but horse that ran second was a two-time winner and second in a Caulfield Cup...

I am not going to argue this with you any further...I've been watching races VERY closely for 20 years and she was a champion. Maybe not in the "all-time" category as the immortals...but defintiely in the level below them...and far supeior to Saintly.

You actually said you've never seen a plate run so far out. Again. I repeat. Sunline 2000 had hers won a lot further out then the Diva's.

You're not going to argue further because you're now agreeing with me bar Saintly. I said not the greatest of all time. You've now agreed.

Happy to have that sorted.

Um no, I don't agree with your original statement... you seem to think there are three classes of horse: all-time, top half-a-dozen...'quality' horses (as you put it)...and also-rans...

My argument with you is that there are more categories that that...Makybe Diva fits into a level just below the all-timers...but superior to Saintly, Sunline, Might and power etc (as good as they were).

If you watch racing, you'll realise that winning margin is not the be-all-and-end-all of winning ease. I still contend that Makybe Diva's win in 2005 was more emphatic than Sunline's.. (Happy to elaborate on my reasons for that belief, if you'd like. ). So no, I don't agree with you there pal. Nice attempt at patronisation though.

[boncer34]

I never said 'larger' win..I said easier. 8 wide on the bend under a hold...might have won by a length but horse that ran second was a two-time winner and second in a Caulfield Cup...

I am not going to argue this with you any further...I've been watching races VERY closely for 20 years and she was a champion. Maybe not in the "all-time" category as the immortals...but defintiely in the level below them...and far supeior to Saintly.

You actually said you've never seen a plate run so far out. Again. I repeat. Sunline 2000 had hers won a lot further out then the Diva's.

You're not going to argue further because you're now agreeing with me bar Saintly. I said not the greatest of all time. You've now agreed.

Happy to have that sorted.

Um no, I don't agree with your original statement... you seem to think there are three classes of horse: all-time, top half-a-dozen...'quality' horses (as you put it)...and also-rans...

My argument with you is that there are more categories that that...Makybe Diva fits into a level just below the all-timers...but superior to Saintly, Sunline, Might and power etc (as good as they were).

If you watch racing, you'll realise that winning margin is not the be-all-and-end-all of winning ease. I still contend that Makybe Diva's win in 2005 was more emphatic than Sunline's.. (Happy to elaborate on my reasons for that belief, if you'd like. ). So no, I don't agree with you there pal. Nice attempt at patronisation though.

Winning margin isn't the be all and end all. Thats true. But you can't seriously expect me to believe that you've watched racing for 20 years if your going to say the Diva's hard fought win over the FOO was won further out then Sunline obliterating all comers. That was your point btw. That it was won earlier then Sunlines. Sunline had hers won before the turn. The Diva didn't.

However you do agree with me old mate about where we rate Diva.

You've started creating my own opinions for me in order to make an argument and while its amusing its a little sad. I never said I thought there was 3 categories. I know there is many. Just by my own terminology I would place quality just below greatest of all time.

Therefore you agree with me when I say the Diva isn't the greatest of all time and is in that elite quality group below.

[Choppy]

"Just by my own terminology I would place quality just below greatest of all time."

If you'd have said this at the start, we'd have saved quit a bit of too-ing and fro-ing...obvioulsy an issue of semantics...we might have been on the same page RE Makybe Diva all along...all good.

Still disgree with your assessment of Sunline's win vis-a-vis that of MD...but that's just one person's opinion over another.. =D>

[boncer34]

Still disgree with your assessment of Sunline's win vis-a-vis that of MD...but that's just one person's opinion over another.. =D>

I am curious as to why though?

One horse I always had a soft spot for was Diatribe.Wasn't really a good horse but shit it had a big heart.

Remember when FOO won its first plate I had $100 on Diatribe to get up. Shattered. Didn't help the old man had put $100 on FOO and was celebrating next to me.

His only f****** tip for the spring.

[Choppy]

>[/quote]
I am curious as to why though?

[/quote]

The big 'threats' that day were Tie The Knot, Intergaze and Sky Heights from memory. Jockey error/complacency on all three counts gifted Childs an easy lead and he was still unchallenged at the 'school'. Unheard of in a Cox Plate. Yes, she bolted in...no question about that...but for me, the fact that the three main dangers were written out of the script by their clueless jockeys on the day, meant that it was nothing more than a track gallop for Sunline...she was never a 'true' mile-and-a-quarter horse (as evidenced by 2001 and 2002) and I think the 2000 romp was somehwhat flattering for her.

In 2005, however, the race was 'on' from the 600...real genuine pressure and Makybe Diva was WALKING! Coming round that bend Boss would have be grinning from ear to ear. Yes, margin wasn't as great but I think it was still won a long way from home.

Could argue all night about the merits of each, and I do concede that Sunline's 2000 Cox Plate was ove a long way from home (too) but the jockey error in that rae, for mine, makes Diva's more emphatic...

Diatribe was a top stayer...somehow won the Caulfield Cup in quicker time than Might and Power...then the MCup controversy...can't quite recall what it was all about though

[j-mac31]

So I don't like horse racing and think the coverage (Australian Story FFS) and above discussion on Black Caviar is waaay over the top but FMD, they've moved one horse across in the barriers to make sure nothing happens to her at the start of the race.

[Jazz_84]

they've moved one horse across in the barriers to make sure nothing happens to her at the start of the race.

with good reason that horse is a bloody nightmare, it lays down in the barriers and actually in 1 race both horses either side of it had to be scratched due to it laying down

im shocked it's not totally banned to be honest

i guess like in AFL the powerful teams get the perks and it's no different here, the people want to see her run so they will do anything to make sure that happens

[BenDoolan]

So I don't like horse racing and think the coverage (Australian Story FFS) and above discussion on Black Caviar is waaay over the top but FMD, they've moved one horse across in the barriers to make sure nothing happens to her at the start of the race.

Yes, as opposed to the racing fraternity doing everything in their power to stop Phar Lap's run back in her day....

[Jazz_84]

Black Caviar this morning did an 800m gallop in 44 sec and Moody said that she was well held so obviously could have gone under 40 sec if he is telling the truth and let me tell you that is an amazing number!

to put into context, that is 11 sec/furlong (200m) and easily could have done 10 sec Moody is saying, I've ridden countless horses and the best time I've ever done is a 10.8 over a single furlong (200m) giving it everything i had, and over 800m the best time I've probably done is about 48 sec, meaning a sustained 12 sec/furlong

I've ridden Pinker Pinker but never got to do a flat out gallop so i can't say what sort of times she could do over a short sprint, might ask actually in the morning what sort of times she does to get a gauge

bottom line is Caviar is supremely fit and fast, in fact supremely is an understatement..... she can't really lose any race given to her

[Choppy]

"bottom line is Caviar is supremely fit and fast, in fact supremely is an understatement..... she can't really lose any race given to her"

She's great...but one word.....Frankel.

[boncer34]

"bottom line is Caviar is supremely fit and fast, in fact supremely is an understatement..... she can't really lose any race given to her"

She's great...but one word.....Frankel.

Caviar will most likely never step up to the 1600 Frankel prefers. Over 1200 I'd give her a show though.

Plus the chances of them ever racing are remote so she probably will win any race she's given.

[Gimps]

"bottom line is Caviar is supremely fit and fast, in fact supremely is an understatement..... she can't really lose any race given to her"

She's great...but one word.....Frankel.

Caviar will most likely never step up to the 1600 Frankel prefers. Over 1200 I'd give her a show though.

Plus the chances of them ever racing are remote so she probably will win any race she's given.

MRC are trying to get Frankel over here for a match race or the Futurity (I think). 1400m race. Black Caviar is almost ubeatable over 1200m, same goes for Frankel over a mile. So they want to run them in between those distances. Would be awesome if it happened, but unlikely.

[boncer34]

"bottom line is Caviar is supremely fit and fast, in fact supremely is an understatement..... she can't really lose any race given to her"

She's great...but one word.....Frankel.

Caviar will most likely never step up to the 1600 Frankel prefers. Over 1200 I'd give her a show though.

Plus the chances of them ever racing are remote so she probably will win any race she's given.

MRC are trying to get Frankel over here for a match race or the Futurity (I think). 1400m race. Black Caviar is almost ubeatable over 1200m, same goes for Frankel over a mile. So they want to run them in between those distances. Would be awesome if it happened, but unlikely.

Yeah I saw that. Would be sensational if it occured.

The hype would be amazing.

[j-mac31]

The hype would be overblown and annoying.

[Jazz_84]

not a bad horse

[boncer34]

not a bad horse

Rekon she got ridden for maybe 300 metres today.

[Jazz_84]

not a bad horse

Rekon she got ridden for maybe 300 metres today.

and her last 600m was in 32 sec and the first 300 was cantering and the last 300 as you said was a bit more then a canter, id love to know how quick she could do the 600m if pushed

hope she gets another run this year

[Gimps]

Not going to Perth. WAJC will be faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarking spewing!