Very Interesting...

[BenDoolan]

Soft.

But good.

[pevfan]

When you look back at our history...it's been that way at Essendon for many, many years.In fact with very few exceptions it's all been one way traffic...the wrong way.We've lost one super star after another. I'll go right back to when I was old enough to take a serious interest in the Bombers...Bob Shearman, then throw in your Justin Maddens, Roger Merretts, , Paul Salmons (gave his best years to the Hawks IMO),Gavin Wanganeens and Damien Hardwicks.I'll even include John Barnes in that list, Yes I know he came back to play in a premiership team at the tail end of his career but (similar to Fish) only after he'd already given his best years to the Cats.

On the positive side of the ledger who have we ever picked up in the way of a ready made genuine super star...the only one I can think of is Graham Moss and then it was only for a very few short (but no less brilliant seasons). He left Essendon the year after he won his Brownlow, a huge loss at the time.

Yes, I know we've picked up some good indians over the years like Paul Barnard and Sean Wellman (and didn't Sheeds dine out on that deal for years) but overall we are well behind the 8 ball I reckon. So when I hear talk of us picking up some big name player I can't help thinking of the old song "Promises, promises"

[BenDoolan]

When you look back at our history...it's been that way at Essendon for many, many years.In fact with very few exceptions it's all been one way traffic...the wrong way.We've lost one super star after another. I'll go right back to when I was old enough to take a serious interest in the Bombers...Bob Shearman, then throw in your Justin Maddens, Roger Merretts, , Paul Salmons (gave his best years to the Hawks IMO),Gavin Wanganeens and Damien Hardwicks.I'll even include John Barnes in that list, Yes I know he came back to play in a premiership team at the tail end of his career but (similar to Fish) only after he'd already given his best years to the Cats.

On the positive side of the ledger who have we ever picked up in the way of a ready made genuine super star...the only one I can think of is Graham Moss and then it was only for a very few short (but no less brilliant seasons). He left Essendon the year after he won his Brownlow, a huge loss at the time.

Yes, I know we've picked up some good indians over the years like Paul Barnard and Sean Wellman (and didn't Sheeds dine out on that deal for years) but overall we are well behind the 8 ball I reckon. So when I hear talk of us picking up some big name player I can't help thinking of the old song "Promises, promises"

Terry, Neale, Anthony & Chris Daniher all worked out very well for us in trades. Derek Kickett, Sean Denham, Alan Ezard (from Melbourne originally), Bryan Wood and Tony Elshaug were all handy pick ups over the years. There are probably other gems like Ben Doolan that you could include there

[Mick]

Pevfan, you've left out our best trade of all time: Terry and Neale Daniher for Neville Fields. And Nifty Nev returned to us within a couple of seasons.
How you could remember Graham Moss but leave out Terry Daniher implies selective memory for the benefit of an argument?

On the subject of John Barnes, he was a totally out-of-control idiot when Essendon traded him for Sean Denham. We got him back when he was an idiot who could also play football.

And some of the other one-way traffic you talk about had genuine reasons for departing such as limited opportunities in the ruck (Justin and Fish), new teams into the AFL (Wanganeen) and Salary cap pressure (Hardwick). Roger departing cost us the flag in '90 and I still to this day can not find a valid reason for that departure.

Some will say that McPhee was a good trade and others will argue against it but that one was born of salary cap pressure (Caracella). The other part of that trade, Cupido, turned out poorly because while he had skill, the light was on and absolutely no one was at home and never had been.

The trouble we have had during the Sheedy years was the project and experimentation players that we picked up: Doc Whieldon, Zantuck to name just a couple that have gone horribly wrong.

even though not ready made players at the time, the trades to secure Lloyd and Lucas via the Fremantle consessions and draft picks however was sensational..

[swoodley]

When you look back at our history...it's been that way at Essendon for many, many years.In fact with very few exceptions it's all been one way traffic...the wrong way.We've lost one super star after another. I'll go right back to when I was old enough to take a serious interest in the Bombers...Bob Shearman, then throw in your Justin Maddens, Roger Merretts, , Paul Salmons (gave his best years to the Hawks IMO),Gavin Wanganeens and Damien Hardwicks.I'll even include John Barnes in that list, Yes I know he came back to play in a premiership team at the tail end of his career but (similar to Fish) only after he'd already given his best years to the Cats.

On the positive side of the ledger who have we ever picked up in the way of a ready made genuine super star...the only one I can think of is Graham Moss and then it was only for a very few short (but no less brilliant seasons). He left Essendon the year after he won his Brownlow, a huge loss at the time.

Yes, I know we've picked up some good indians over the years like Paul Barnard and Sean Wellman (and didn't Sheeds dine out on that deal for years) but overall we are well behind the 8 ball I reckon. So when I hear talk of us picking up some big name player I can't help thinking of the old song "Promises, promises"

Terry, Neale, Anthony & Chris Daniher all worked out very well for us in trades. Derek Kickett, Sean Denham, Alan Ezard (from Melbourne originally), Bryan Wood and Tony Elshaug were all handy pick ups over the years. There are probably other gems like Ben Doolan that you could include there

Lovely self promotion there BD =D>

[swoodley]

When you look back at our history...it's been that way at Essendon for many, many years.In fact with very few exceptions it's all been one way traffic...the wrong way.We've lost one super star after another. I'll go right back to when I was old enough to take a serious interest in the Bombers...Bob Shearman, then throw in your Justin Maddens, Roger Merretts, , Paul Salmons (gave his best years to the Hawks IMO),Gavin Wanganeens and Damien Hardwicks.I'll even include John Barnes in that list, Yes I know he came back to play in a premiership team at the tail end of his career but (similar to Fish) only after he'd already given his best years to the Cats.

On the positive side of the ledger who have we ever picked up in the way of a ready made genuine super star...the only one I can think of is Graham Moss and then it was only for a very few short (but no less brilliant seasons). He left Essendon the year after he won his Brownlow, a huge loss at the time.

Yes, I know we've picked up some good indians over the years like Paul Barnard and Sean Wellman (and didn't Sheeds dine out on that deal for years) but overall we are well behind the 8 ball I reckon. So when I hear talk of us picking up some big name player I can't help thinking of the old song "Promises, promises"

I don't remember Bob Shearman but I certainly remember us picking up the Daniher brothers for Neville Fields, not to mention then getting Anthony and Chris (all good to great players).

Justin Maddens is an interesting one to throw in....he was always going to struggle to get a game behind Simon and his leaving directly benefited Merrett who came on in leaps and bounds and filled to 2nd ruck spot quite nicely in 84-85.

Roger Merrett leaving was certainly disappointing adn I was overseas when it happened so I don't really know the story there.

Paul Salmon played for 12-13 years before he went to Hawthorn and managed to play in two premiership teams in his time at Essendon so I hardly think he had his best years at Hawthorn. Please remember where Hawthorn were situated on the ladder during his time there as distinct from where we were. It was easier to be a good (great) player at Hawthorn during the years he was there. Given that we got Wellman and Barnard through that deal, I have no hesitation in saying we got the best of the deal.

We had no say in Wanaganeen going and would have fought tooth and nail to keep him but the opportunity offered was too good for him to pass up...no fault of ours though.

The administration farked up with the salary cap and that cost us Caracalla, Blumfield and Heffernan but Hardwick chose to go to Port when they offered him a three year deal (when we were only offering one and virtually encouraged him to go).

But as for picking up big name players....I prefer to develop them ourselves as the big name recruits I remember getting from other clubs (Tuddy, Raines & Richardson) never had the passion for the club that true greats need. The next Hird, Madden etc is just waiting for us to pick him up.

[Mrs Mercuri]

I heard on channel 10 news tonight about Pev and then Quarters mentioned that the Bombers have said that Andrew Lovett is up for trade.....???? As far as i know he is under contract for next season and despite his offield problems has been one of our better players especially in the second half of the year. I am sure that Knighta has come out and said that he values Andrew as a part of the team for the future.....

I would be shattered if Lovey was traded.

IF it was to happen, who would be interested and what would we get for him??

[pevfan]

I note your arguments BD, Swoods and Mick. Re Terry Daniher when we got him from South I would only have rated him only in the Good Indian class, certainly AT THAT STAGE OF HIS CAREER, he was no super star. The same comment would not be unfair about his brothers IMHO.

Re Paul Salmon, I have no doubt that losing him cost us the 99 flag. If you doubt that, compare a first ruck division with Salmon in to the one we fielded that included one P.Somerville. Do you not think that Fish might not have made more than a 1 point difference in that nightmare prelim final...I mean Is the Pope a Catholic.

No; what I am talking about here is the really big name Super Star trades/deals that have taken place at other clubs over the years. Deals Like Barassi to Carlton, Baldock to the Saints, John McIntosh to the Saints, Ian Stewart to Richmond, Lockett to the Swans, Hall to the Swans, Kernahan to Carlton, Bradley to Carlton (that one still hurts when I think about it cos we originally had Braddles signed) Jeff White to the Dees. More recently, Stevens and then the real biggie, Judd to Carlton. (any one noticing a pattern emerging here) All were ready made stars when they were picked up. Stars that went on to give (and those who are are now on their way to giving) terrific (100+ and 200+ game careers)service to their new clubs. Oh and by the way, I've forgotten ANOTHER really big name player that we lost to another club (and didn't this one hurt at the time) one Barry Davis to North. Then throw in all the other biggies Norf got at the same time as well, your Doug Wades and John Rantalls

I'm sure there are many other similar examples to those mentioned above in AFL/VFL history over the past say 40 to 50 years (which is as far back as my personal memory of these events can take me) But can anyone recall any more than one or two similar type deals/trades that Essendon have pulled off over the years? and if so can you throw in names as big as those (most of whom would now be in the AFL/VFL Legend class) that I've thrown up?

[BenDoolan]

I note your arguments BD, Swoods and Mick. Re Terry Daniher when we got him from South I would only have rated him only in the Good Indian class, certainly AT THAT STAGE OF HIS CAREER, he was no super star. The same comment would not be unfair about his brothers IMHO.

Re Paul Salmon, I have no doubt that losing him cost us the 99 flag. If you doubt that, compare a first ruck division with Salmon in to the one we fielded that included one P.Somerville. Do you not think that Fish might not have made more than a 1 point difference in that nightmare prelim final...I mean Is the Pope a Catholic.

No; what I am talking about here is the really big name Super Star trades/deals that have taken place at other clubs over the years. Deals Like Barassi to Carlton, Baldock to the Saints, John McIntosh to the Saints, Ian Stewart to Richmond, Lockett to the Swans, Hall to the Swans, Kernahan to Carlton, Bradley to Carlton (that one still hurts when I think about it cos we originally had Braddles signed) Jeff White to the Dees. More recently, Stevens and then the real biggie, Judd to Carlton. (any one noticing a pattern emerging here) All were ready made stars when they were picked up. Stars that went on to give (and those who are are now on their way to giving) terrific (100+ and 200+ game careers)service to their new clubs. Oh and by the way, I've forgotten ANOTHER really big name player that we lost to another club (and didn't this one hurt at the time) one Barry Davis to North. Then throw in all the other biggies Norf got at the same time as well, your Doug Wades and John Rantalls

I'm sure there are many other similar examples to those mentioned above in AFL/VFL history over the past say 40 to 50 years (which is as far back as my personal memory of these events can take me) But can anyone recall any more than one or two similar type deals/trades that Essendon have pulled off over the years? and if so can you throw in names as big as those (most of whom would now be in the AFL/VFL Legend class) that I've thrown up?

But using interstate recruits like Kernahan and Bradley would be like using Leon Baker, Billy Duckworth, Paul Weston, Darren Bewick, Gavin Wanganeen and Michael Long as recruiting coups for us. And don't forget our clever shiftiness in securing Matthew Lloyd AND Scott Lucas with the junk we gave Freo for those picks.

[Rossoneri]

We have done very very well at the trade table over the years, its the drafting that has killed us.

And Lovett wont be traded for anything less than a first round pick and considering no one will give us theirs, he will be at Essendon next year.

[swoodley]

Re Paul Salmon, I have no doubt that losing him cost us the 99 flag. If you doubt that, compare a first ruck division with Salmon in to the one we fielded that included one P.Somerville. Do you not think that Fish might not have made more than a 1 point difference in that nightmare prelim final...I mean Is the Pope a Catholic.

Having Hird and/or Lucas that day probably would have won us the game too or if Mercuri or Caracella (our two best kicks) had kicked even one goal between them we would have won.

Salmon was long gone by '99 and you're drawing a long bow with that argument.

Would we have been as good in 2000 without Wellman and Barnard?

Who knows but it is the same sort of argument as you're using with Salmon.

[pevfan]

Sticking to my guns here Swoods. You've centred your argument around Paul Salmon. Well let me say this...Yes, Salmon was long gone by then but it doesn't alter the thrust of my argument that he, along with all the other great champions that have been prematurely and might I say in most cases (in footy terms at least) tragically lost to the club when they shouldn't have been.

In fact there is no more tragic case than Salmon. A Bomber to his boot laces as evidenced by his almost prodigal son type return for that 1 final year. As handy as Wellman and Barney were, put Salmon back in that side as a one club Champion and I say the club certainly has at least 1 arguably perhaps even 2 more premiership cups sitting in the cabinet. Salmon was a match winner. A man capable of kicking 6 or more goals off his own boot ... Easy. Who knows, we only lost the 01 GF by 4 goals, he may have even made the dif that day.

No, I hated losing Paul Salmon, just as I hated losing Barry Davis, Gavin Wanganeen, Bobby Shearman and all the other great champs that I've mentioned. Like I said it's nearly all been one way traffic and the club has done very little to redress that imbalance over the years. Look at Carlton, as much as we hate them you gotta admit that historically, they've done the right thing by their fans by leaving no stone unturned when it came to getting the best footballers in the land to come and play for them.(and they're still doing it today) The same could be said of the Saints, they won their flag by attracting the best to their club, the Baldocks, MacIntosh's etc. Geelong, the same when they got Polly Farmer and Denis Marshall to come across and play for them. Norf...Boy! didn't they make the most of that 10 year rule. Barry Cable. Barry Davis and all the other ready made champs they picked up. The 10 year rule was there for any club to take advantage of but it was North that stole the March on us and all the other clubs. The net result was 2 flags. I could go on but I think, I've made my point.

[Rossoneri]

Sticking to my guns here Swoods. You've centred your argument around Paul Salmon. Well let me say this...Yes, Salmon was long gone by then but it doesn't alter the thrust of my argument that he, along with all the other great champions that have been prematurely and might I say in most cases (in footy terms at least) tragically lost to the club when they shouldn't have been.

Now i don't know too much about the 70's but in regards to Wanganeen, what could the club have possibly have done to keep him? He wanted to go home and unless we can investigate any repressed memories of him actually growing up in Victoria then what could we have done?

Others to have left the club as you mentioned like Davis was the 10-year rule. Could the club have offered him more money to stay? Did we have the backing to offer him more money, as in, did we have the money back then?

Salmon left because he wanted to play ruck and Sheeds thought that Somerville will be the #1 ruckman after Madden. Turns out it was a bad decision but that is life. Salmon could not have played forward with Lloyd and Lucas coming up and add to the fact the disrespect the supporters gave to him and you wonder why he chose to leave.

On the recent pick ups, Judd wanted 1.2mil a year, how would we fit that in the cap and secondly, how would we get him from WCE? Give them Johns and a 1st round pick? Stevens was in the pre-season draft, Port wanted Didak and a first round pick. Who could we have given up? Lockett and Hall went to Sydney for the money as those pricks have more money in the cap than the rest of the competition.

Its hard to land a big fish these days if you are high on the ladder. Who has Collingwood landed? Brisbane? Geelong? Hawthorn?
Carlton had picks 1 and 3 and a crook as a president who is paying Judd outside the cap.

[BenDoolan]

Sticking to my guns here Swoods. You've centred your argument around Paul Salmon. Well let me say this...Yes, Salmon was long gone by then but it doesn't alter the thrust of my argument that he, along with all the other great champions that have been prematurely and might I say in most cases (in footy terms at least) tragically lost to the club when they shouldn't have been.

Now i don't know too much about the 70's but in regards to Wanganeen, what could the club have possibly have done to keep him? He wanted to go home and unless we can investigate any repressed memories of him actually growing up in Victoria then what could we have done?

Others to have left the club as you mentioned like Davis was the 10-year rule. Could the club have offered him more money to stay? Did we have the backing to offer him more money, as in, did we have the money back then?

Salmon left because he wanted to play ruck and Sheeds thought that Somerville will be the #1 ruckman after Madden. Turns out it was a bad decision but that is life. Salmon could not have played forward with Lloyd and Lucas coming up and add to the fact the disrespect the supporters gave to him and you wonder why he chose to leave.

On the recent pick ups, Judd wanted 1.2mil a year, how would we fit that in the cap and secondly, how would we get him from WCE? Give them Johns and a 1st round pick? Stevens was in the pre-season draft, Port wanted Didak and a first round pick. Who could we have given up? Lockett and Hall went to Sydney for the money as those pricks have more money in the cap than the rest of the competition.

Its hard to land a big fish these days if you are high on the ladder. Who has Collingwood landed? Brisbane? Geelong? Hawthorn?
Carlton had picks 1 and 3 and a crook as a president who is paying Judd outside the cap.

You've hit the nail on the head on several occasions there Rosso. Salmon wanted out after that disgraceful reception he received at Waverley.

The 10-Year Rule lasted only from August 1972 until May 1973, but that was long enough to help turn North Melbourne from the whipping boys of the competition into a superpower.

The rule allowed any player with 10 years' continuous service to transfer as a free agent to another club without a clearance. North got Doug Wade, Barry Davis and John Rantall.

Wanganeen simply headed home to Port Adelaide as they entered the competition and was offered the captaincy.

And as you say, Judd is getting 1.2 mil per year. Fev is getting 800k. That's 2 mil on two players. 5 mil for the rest of the list. Good luck to the blues at being able to afford to keep their No.1 picks down the track.

[F111]

All this talk of trading for experienced players and Rene Kink and Phil Carmen haven't rated a mention!

[Windy_Hill]

All this talk of trading for experienced players and Rene Kink and Phil Carmen haven't rated a mention!

Brian Wood
Mike Richardson
Geoff Raines
Derek Kickett
Tony Daniher
Jeff Cunningham's Little Brother
Illia Grigic

The list of great trades goes on and on

[BenDoolan]

Des Tuddenham
Graeme "Jerker" Jenkin
Neil Besanko
Allan Davis
Wayne Foreman
Bryan Brown (Jonathon's Dad)
Steve Taubert
Russell Muir
Peter Bennett
Grant Fowler
Doug Cox
Cameron Clayton
Peter Francis
Mark Hannebery
Ian Morrison
Stephen Pirrie
Roy Ramsay
Graham Schultz
Alan Stoneham
David Sullivan
Brian Winton

[pevfan]

Yeah, huge names there Windy...right up there with the Barassi's Lockett's, Davi's, Wanganeen's, Merretts et al

Re Judd to Carlton.Yep, despite the new communistic type drafting rules, the Blues, yet again, found a way...just like they always have, of landing the best footballers in the country. I tell you what, if Essendon had applied the same shrewdness and yes, might I say due diligence to it's membership and sponsors as the Blues have done throughout the past 40 or 50 years or so in recruiting the best players we would have more silverware in our hall of fame than we have now. Of that I have no doubt. Did the Blues manage these coups because they were a richer club than Essendon?... I don't think so. But like I said they always manage to find a way.

[Rossoneri]

Yeah, huge names there Windy...right up there with the Barassi's Lockett's, Davi's, Wanganeen's, Merretts et al

Re Judd to Carlton.Yep, despite the new communistic type drafting rules, the Blues, yet again, found a way...just like they always have, of landing the best footballers in the country. I tell you what, if Essendon had applied the same shrewdness and yes, might I say due diligence to it's membership and sponsors as the Blues have done throughout the past 40 or 50 years or so in recruiting the best players we would have more silverware in our hall of fame than we have now. Of that I have no doubt. Did the Blues manage these coups because they were a richer club than Essendon?... I don't think so. But like I said they always manage to find a way.

Perhaps if we finished last on the ladder we may have got Stevens.
Perhaps if we tanked we may have got Judd.

Sorry, I know this sounds silly, but I would never want the club to deliberately lose to get a good player. If Essendon ever went out there, with no intention of winning, then I wouldn't even bother going to the game.

And just on Carlton and its sponsors, you'll find Hird and Lloyd were getting paid a little bit from Ansett thanks to McMahon. We do it to keep our champions, Carlton do it to buy champions. Hopefully Karma hasn't forgotten about it.

[Karma]

And just on Carlton and its sponsors, you'll find Hird and Lloyd were getting paid a little bit from Ansett thanks to McMahon. We do it to keep our champions, Carlton do it to buy champions. Hopefully Karma hasn't forgotten about it.

Don't worry, I haven't.