Sheeds & Kepler

[Ronny Rotten]

Things have been a bit quiet on the football scene recently so i've been reading Sheeds book 'Stand Your Ground" & have come accross some interesting points.

~Firstly he has a bit to say on his dismissal, IMO this is old news & we move on, the club made the correct decision to end his remarkable career at Essendon.

~That Knighta, while he is an excellant person, the club should have appointed either Neil Daniher, Mark Thompson or even Mark Williams (if available) as coach because of their experience.

~The coaches were livid with the players for their inept performance in Sheeds/Hirds final game in Melbourne against Richmond. Mainly for their lack of desperation. (Agree with that)

~If he had stayed he would have made every effort to get Judd & as mentioned previously he would have offered Lloyd as bait to WCE. He also says that Hird would have played for another year if Judd came to Essendon. He names a possible 2008 side with Judd & Hird with no Lloyd.

B Dempsey, Michael, Fletcher
HB Lovett-Murray,Ryder,McPhee/Welsh
C Stanton, Judd, Winderlich
HF Hird,Gumbleton, Lovett
F Davey,Lucas,Neagle
R Hille, McVeigh, Monfries
Bench Laycock,Nash,Riemers, Jetta
Emergencies Houli, Slattery, KEPLER BRADLEY.

Yes Bradley, Sheeds would not have delisted Bradley as he saw him as similar long term project to Kevin Walsh & Dean Wallis. He also said he is a tall HALF FORWARD FLANKER who can run all day. If so, I ask the question why did Sheeds play him on the back line or wing. Fev, Richo even Nicola Riewoldt would have loved to see Bradley stand them during a game. (Bradley as a forward. - i saw him miss goals 15metres out directly in front)

That proposed looks good on paper (though no Myers, Pears or Daniher) but some of them played only a few games or not at all. ( 8 of the 22 if you include Hird & Judd). Most of the rest were injured at some stage during the season.

As i said an interesting book during the boring off season.

[BenDoolan]

I really love Sheeds, and will never forget what he has done for our club. But I find this....

That Knighta, while he is an excellant person, the club should have appointed either Neil Daniher, Mark Thompson or even Mark Williams (if available) as coach because of their experience

a bizarre thing for him to say.

If he can cast his mind back (I'm sure he can), he will remember that the Essendon Football Club were in a position to appoint Allan Jeans or John Nicholls (both experienced premiership coaches) in 1981. They chose an inexperienced Kevin Sheedy instead (thankfully).

[ealesy]

Williams and Thompson were never available. Neale Daniher coached Melbourne to one grand final in 10 years, the list he got to the Grand Final was predominately assembled before he arrived and he has to take a fair bit of blame for the pathetic rabble that is Melbourne's current playing list.

So yeah Daniher has a good amount of experience...pity it was being at an average, at best, AFL coach. I'm glad that the board did not play it safe and appoint him and took the bold step of making an a surprise appointment of a young coach, who had little experience and little success at the coaching he had previously been involved in.

Would have been completely up shit creek if Sheeds had his way and traded Lloyd for Judd, I mean he was relying on Lucas, Neagle and Gumbleton to be his key forwards, who managed less than 10 games between them in at all levels, while ripping the heart and soul out of the club.

Do you really see Hird playing another year if we had got Judd. I mean has he ever said this was the case, would some like Hird who has such respect and loved for the club have been happy to come back for another year after the coach screwed over the captain of the club, who was a champion of the club himself, for an easy fix short term fix in getting a f****** passionless, mercenary to the club.

Jesus H. Christ, I love Sheeds for what he gave our club for the first 22 odd years of his coaching career, but I'm seriously glad the club finally grew some balls and gave him the arse when they did, pity it didn't happen in about 2003, or at least have the balls to wrest control of the football department from the egomanic by then at the latest. Who knows if they had done that he might very still be a job today!!

[Ronny Rotten]

According to the book, Page 297, quote " íf judd came to Essendon,James Hird would have played another year. He told me that himself." I hav'nt heard denials from Hird but i agree & find it amazing that he could play on if the club (sheeds) shafted Lloyd, his mate & a loyal Bomber champion.

Sheeds move on. You were great for the club for most of the time but get the chip off your shoulder.

[Doctor Fish]

He's saying similar stuff on SEN right now...

[jimmyc1985]

Yes Bradley, Sheeds would not have delisted Bradley as he saw him as similar long term project to Kevin Walsh & Dean Wallis.

This sort of thinking was a big part of Sheeds' problem since list sizes started being heavily restricted in 1998. When he started almost 30 years ago, teams often had 60 players on the list and, given you only had to field 20 players per match, you could afford to have a handful of speculative "coach's choice/project players" on the list. Lists are now restricted to 38 players (i think?) and given you have to field 22 per match, it is far more difficult justify having a handful of "project players" on your list for an extended period of time. Each and every one of the 38 players on the list must be capable of justifying their spot on the list on a purely merits-based assessment, and if they can't, then you delist them as soon as possible.

[BenDoolan]

Yes Bradley, Sheeds would not have delisted Bradley as he saw him as similar long term project to Kevin Walsh & Dean Wallis.

This sort of thinking was a big part of Sheeds' problem since list sizes started being heavily restricted in 1998. When he started almost 30 years ago, teams often had 60 players on the list and, given you only had to field 20 players per match, you could afford to have a handful of speculative "coach's choice/project players" on the list. Lists are now restricted to 38 players (i think?) and given you have to field 22 per match, it is far more difficult justify having a handful of "project players" on your list for an extended period of time. Each and every one of the 38 players on the list must be capable of justifying their spot on the list on a purely merits-based assessment, and if they can't, then you delist them as soon as possible.

Never a truer word spoken.

[tom9779]

I haven't got a bad thing to say about sheeds. however Benny Doolan you are right re: Sheeds own appointment and how it echoes Knights in a way. mind boggling.

From what I understand Thompson/Williams did not want the gig, and as much as I love Neil Daniher and the work he does he seems a bit too much the nice guy. Really found a way of coming last at Melbourne.

As for Lloyd trade with Judd - if WCE liked the sound of that I can't see it being all that bad. Lloydy has family over in Freo now(with his brother), so he probably could have adjusted. People suggesting he would 'shaft' a player is absolute crap. If that trade was ever really on, it could have been a win/win for both clubs.(Although I think this part was just sensationlism to flog a few more of his books)

I actually think what Sheedy did plenty for delisted players in helping them find new home. Something that on the surface seems a bit absent at the moment.
Sheedy was a coach and should do the best thing for the club. He is not there to be best mates with the players.

The change will eventually be good for the club, hopefully Knights will turn into a premiership winning coach.
Sheeds can still coach, and if the gig comes up, should go for it. I wish him all the best at his role at Richmond.

Kepler is a funny one. I just do not know how to place him, other than he was having a shocking run at the dons. Although Freo seem happy enough with him.

[Windy_Hill]

Sorry, this simply proves that Sheedy had to go. He has clearly lost his marbles.

[tom9779]

speaking of sheedy.

his ahem 'old mate' Alec Epis didn't make it onto the board in 2009.
http://essendonfc.com.au/news/news.asp?nid=6212

[rockhole]

speaking of sheedy.

his ahem 'old mate' Alec Epis didn't make it onto the board in 2009.
http://essendonfc.com.au/news/news.asp?nid=6212

Looks like they finally shut the Kookaburra up.

[Fraz]

As for Lloyd trade with Judd - if WCE liked the sound of that I can't see it being all that bad. Lloydy has family over in Freo now(with his brother), so he probably could have adjusted. People suggesting he would 'shaft' a player is absolute crap. If that trade was ever really on, it could have been a win/win for both clubs.(Although I think this part was just sensationlism to flog a few more of his books)

Just a small note, Lloydy doesn't have family over in Perth. His brother, Brad, works for Fremantle but he does so from Melbourne. And I think it would've been shafting a player. You just don't treat greats of your club (and of the game) like that, even if it was just to flog some books.

[Chris]

With the lloyd trade for Judd, I feel it is in the book just to stir up some intrest, I seriousely doubt sheeds would have considered the trade. The only major surprise trade in his term as coach was that of Paul Salmon and he was not our captain.

That said, I think it would have been a great option, in fact as a club moving forward, with Lloyd unlikley to be part of our next GF push I think it would have been a great trade for our club, that is IF Lloyd was happy with the trade (moving your captain on against his will is just not on).

At the time I dont think the trade would have been hard to sell to Lloyd or the eagles. As far as they knew they still had cousins and Kerr and Pridis coming on, and coming off back to back GF appearances would have been fair enough thinking if they got a reliable goal kicker like Lloyd in the side, they could continue to be GF threats.

From Lloyd's perspective, the bottom line is he could stay with a struggling rebuilding club with little hope of a premiership before he retires, or join WC and maybe snag another cup or two.

In fact, as long as it happened that way (a mutual descision between club and player), I'd have been more than happy with the trade. Mercenary or not, Judd was and still is a gun midfielder which is precisely what we need in the immediate term whilst we still ahve greats like Lucus and Fletcher as our bookends.

[ealesy]

From Lloyd's perspective, the bottom line is he could stay with a struggling rebuilding club with little hope of a premiership before he retires, or join WC and maybe snag another cup or two.

Ever thought for some players there are some things that are more important than just success. Do you really think Hird or Voss would have left their clubs just for a chance at another flag? Hell no...why would Lloyd be any different.

I'm glad we are not rugby league and some players in the AFL still value being a one club player over success, or even further success.

I doubt Robert Harvey would have been as widely loved as he was throughout the AFL, even by non St Kilda supporters if he shafted the Saints and moved to the Blues, Pies or even us on a big money contract and a far greater chance of a premiership.

[Chris]

From Lloyd's perspective, the bottom line is he could stay with a struggling rebuilding club with little hope of a premiership before he retires, or join WC and maybe snag another cup or two.

Ever thought for some players there are some things that are more important than just success. Do you really think Hird or Voss would have left their clubs just for a chance at another flag? Hell no...why would Lloyd be any different.

I'm glad we are not rugby league and some players in the AFL still value being a one club player over success, or even further success.

I doubt Robert Harvey would have been as widely loved as he was throughout the AFL, even by non St Kilda supporters if he shafted the Saints and moved to the Blues, Pies or even us on a big money contract and a far greater chance of a premiership.

Ever thought to read a post properly?

Yes, there is the possibility Lloyd would have had that point of view and been adamant that he would like to stay at the club. And that being the case, (as I did point out in my post) I would expect the club to honour his wish and not persue a trade, the descision would have to be a mutaul arrangement for the betterment of both parties for it to be acceptable in any way shape or form with a club champion. You cant tell me you have any less respect for Paul Salmon for pursuing his interest in a ruck role at the Hawks whilst we benefitted with Wellman and barnard. Its win win!

Face it, Judd would be a nice proposal, he has 6+ great years ahead. Lloyd has 3 Max and we have another superstar forward in Lucus, we have no superstar midfielders to speak of at the moment with McVeigh a very good reliable and consistant player (but no elite by any means) our best. Add to that with Lloyd out, we can start to use Gumby or Neagle as foal points of our forward structure earlier.

For all we know, it may have been brought up in discussions and Lloyd turned it down wanted to stay and it was never made public. My point is Sheeds idea to persue the trade isnt the stupid thing he said, but rather the fact that he probably wouldnt have done it if he was coach.

[Ossie]

From Lloyd's perspective, the bottom line is he could stay with a struggling rebuilding club with little hope of a premiership before he retires, or join WC and maybe snag another cup or two.

Is this the same West Coast who finished second bottom last year?

[Chris]

From Lloyd's perspective, the bottom line is he could stay with a struggling rebuilding club with little hope of a premiership before he retires, or join WC and maybe snag another cup or two.

Is this the same West Coast who finished second bottom last year?

Pretty sure this explains my train of thought, we/they didn't have the benefit of hindsight at the time.

As far as they knew they still had cousins and Kerr and Pridis coming on, and coming off back to back GF appearances would have been fair enough thinking if they got a reliable goal kicker like Lloyd in the side, they could continue to be GF threats.

No one predicted the drastic fall the eagles faced with the loss of Judd as no one knew they were to lose their other champion Cousins to drugs and Kerr to injury and loss of form and the whole midfield would go downhill from there. I think it would have been reasonable to assume at the time, that the loss of Judd (and his resulting inside 50's and goals) would have been significantly offset by the higher conversion of inside 50's if they had a top class FF to go to and Cousins/Kerr/Priddis etc still there providing supply.

[Ossie]

From Lloyd's perspective, the bottom line is he could stay with a struggling rebuilding club with little hope of a premiership before he retires, or join WC and maybe snag another cup or two.

Is this the same West Coast who finished second bottom last year?

Pretty sure this explains my train of thought, we/they didn't have the benefit of hindsight at the time.

As far as they knew they still had cousins and Kerr and Pridis coming on, and coming off back to back GF appearances would have been fair enough thinking if they got a reliable goal kicker like Lloyd in the side, they could continue to be GF threats.

No one predicted the drastic fall the eagles faced with the loss of Judd as no one knew they were to lose their other champion Cousins to drugs and Kerr to injury and loss of form and the whole midfield would go downhill from there. I think it would have been reasonable to assume at the time, that the loss of Judd (and his resulting inside 50's and goals) would have been significantly offset by the higher conversion of inside 50's if they had a top class FF to go to and Cousins/Kerr/Priddis etc still there providing supply.

Well ... I dunno ... I always thought they looked a bit fragile. It always seemed to me that their midfield was great but take one or two away and they might crumble.
In any case, I would rather be where we are with our skipper coming off a great year and some promising midfielders in our group. For all the hype about Judd, they still finished 11th, and until THEY get another key forward, I can't see them having a huge impact even if they do make the finals next year. A key forward is SO important. You need something to kick to, and I'm glad we have Lloydy and Lucas.

[dodgey]

Sheedy Who ?????

[tom9779]

As for Lloyd trade with Judd - if WCE liked the sound of that I can't see it being all that bad. Lloydy has family over in Freo now(with his brother), so he probably could have adjusted. People suggesting he would 'shaft' a player is absolute crap. If that trade was ever really on, it could have been a win/win for both clubs.(Although I think this part was just sensationlism to flog a few more of his books)

Just a small note, Lloydy doesn't have family over in Perth. His brother, Brad, works for Fremantle but he does so from Melbourne. And I think it would've been shafting a player. You just don't treat greats of your club (and of the game) like that, even if it was just to flog some books.

Apologies. did not realise brad was melbourne based.

However, no player or person is bigger than the club.
it must have been more than just a sensational headline to sell some stuff.(unless lloyd is in on the ruse with sheeds), either way it does not change my opinion on sheeds or lloyd for that matter. both champions. us trading lloydy would be hard to swallow. but...if it the whole footy department thought it would take efc to september glory.