4 out the Door at Season's End

[paddyl90]

I don't have the balls to say what I really think, I admit that and something I am trying to work on

Jumbo, you dont owe anyone an apology. I had already read what you said to him in the other thread, and it was measured and reasoned. I just decided to put a fire cracker up his arse. Doesnt make you any lesser of a man.

Cheers Robbie I appreciate it a lot. My ego just isn't has strong and domineering as others but I'm more than happy to put my two cents in and shed some reason and positivity around here because sometimes some people can bring other people's moods down with their's and I just try to do the opposite.

[BenDoolan]

Good post Rob.

Stocksy, Monfries did get 24 possessions but I would not have put him on our best player list because of the horrid turnovers he caused. So yes 24 touches doesn't make you a champ. I give him credit that he still had a go and managed to get 24 touches when he could have very well dropped his head after a mistake or two and ended up with 10.

But.......Monfries is what 20 or 21 and his entire time at Essendon has been where we have struggled with injury and being on the wrong part of the ladder. Let's be honest any young kid is going to find it tough if the club he's at is losing games more than what they're winning.

Although a few have Monfries on the trade table, I haven't lost faith in this kid and I think given he's played where he's best suited will be a very good EFC player. Yeah trade him and watch him after all the work we've done and watch him excel somewhere else and against us....no bloody way.

We'll be right, some time its got to get worse before it gets better.

You make some excellent points BC. I'm quite staggered that he is only 21. But what works against him is that his first 25 games were very good and his next 25 were very ordinary. Had it been the other way around, we might all be marvelling at his development rather than wondering where he's at. So far, he's only had an excellent 2006 as an opportunistic half forward flanker. Other than that, he's probably had 2 or 3 "goodish" games at the end of 2007 playing in the midfield. But I take your point, he is quite young still, and can still improve to become a valuable player in a new midfield role. I'm just not as thrilled about him as I used to be.

[robbie67]

My ego just isn't has strong and domineering as others

Not a problem I am going to have anytime soon.

[dodgey]

My ego just isn't has strong and domineering as others

Not a problem I am going to have anytime soon.

and here's me thinking you were the quiet shy retiring type

[bomberflyer]

I'm glad I've generated this debate. Let me at least respond in a respectful manner unlike yourself Robbie. You must be the only one allowed an opinion for god sake.

Let me just say that I love the EFC and only want success. I just prefer to adopt a realistic point of view of where we are and the time I think we need to re-build based on our current player list.

Of course we have a rediculous amount of injuries - where we might need to go down the GFC path and assess our fitness staff as they did a couple of years ago. Of course, players look somewhat worse than what they are when the team is struggling. I just tend to stand-up and take notice of guys who have a go when the backs are to the wall. Jay Neagle is my point in case on this matter. Look at how the kid attacked the game - I thought his performance should be played to the entire group as a pat on the back to Jay, and that if Jay can do it so can everyone else. And Monfries might have had a go despite countless turnovers, but one swallow doesn't make a summer as there has been plenty of time between drinks for Angus. And, with the Crows I can just see that he would be someone they would be interested in being from Sturt in the SANFL and this may open an opportunity for a trade as I don't believe we are getting a lot out of him for his ability. Don't worry I think he can play, but what's the point of keeping unfulfilled talent??? And, I don't think 2 bags of 3 goals 2 years ago is fulfilled talent.

My point with Dyson and Monfries is that they have both played 56 and 57 games respectively and have been given ample opportunity to show their wears. Admittedly they played a few games where they were on and off the field and this is not their fault (I can only assume Sheeds didn't have complete faith or was busy working on one of the 20 project players we've had in the last 5 years). But, nevertheless that many games is enough in my eyes to determine whether or not you're going to make it. Sure, they might do a couple of good things per game but you can't just be content with a couple of good things every game going forward. I get the feely that supporters are happy to wrap them up in cotton wool and make excuses for them, instead of see their performance for what it is - poor.

As for Johns - don't you think the 15 other clubs and its supporters would sit back and think, "I'm glad he's not our list". I don't think he is a concern for other clubs, in fact he is an opportunity, generally to run rings around. That's hard, but I believe this an honest assessment of where he is at. You can't keep saying, "Oh he did that ok", which is quickly counteracted by a number of things he didn't do well.

And Rama, I agree he performed ok earlier in the season, but I don't think he is the future of this club. He may keep his spot on the list, but it is only because there is no one to fill his position. I don't think he was the exceptional player EFC people believe he was either prior to his battles with cancer. In my eyes he was a good player in a good side. And, I can see that as harsh because he is well loved and has overcome his personal battles (which is fantastic for him and everyone else), but I think football needs to be treated like a business, and not a benevolent society. And, despite Walls and Brereton taking the hard views on most things Essendon - lets be honest we only hate it because it hurts (not necessarily because they're are right or wrong).

And, yes the J.Johnsons and Peverills of the world are on the way out, but that's obvious because they can't get a game. And yes - Laycock is a talented bludger. Talented and a bludger.

My point with the first three was that out of our current crop of younger players they are the ones I don't think are good enough at AFL level, or just not good enough at the EFC. The problem as we know is that the others can't get on the paddock so they're deficiencies are well exposed.

Also, when I say at least 10 years for our next premiership, let's just say by the time we have a good midfield we will be without Lloyd, Lucas and Fletcher, which will more than likely a problem in that department come that time. And, if I hear someone bag Lloydy again, just look at the sought of service the guy gets at Essendon. The sort you get in the Kybungers 4ths. If we was at Geelong or Hawthorn he would be kicking 100 no doubt for mine.

I'm sure you'll provide an abusive rebuttle because you're no doubt one big tough "dude" .

[robbie67]

I'm glad I've generated this debate. Let me at least respond in a respectful manner unlike yourself Robbie. You must be the only one allowed an opinion for god sake.

Let me just say that I love the EFC and only want success. I just prefer to adopt a realistic point of view of where we are and the time I think we need to re-build based on our current player list.

Of course we have a rediculous amount of injuries - where we might need to go down the GFC path and assess our fitness staff as they did a couple of years ago. Of course, players look somewhat worse than what they are when the team is struggling. I just tend to stand-up and take notice of guys who have a go when the backs are to the wall. Jay Neagle is my point in case on this matter. Look at how the kid attacked the game - I thought his performance should be played to the entire group as a pat on the back to Jay, and that if Jay can do it so can everyone else. And Monfries might have had a go despite countless turnovers, but one swallow doesn't make a summer as there has been plenty of time between drinks for Angus. And, with the Crows I can just see that he would be someone they would be interested in being from Sturt in the SANFL and this may open an opportunity for a trade as I don't believe we are getting a lot out of him for his ability. Don't worry I think he can play, but what's the point of keeping unfulfilled talent??? And, I don't think 2 bags of 3 goals 2 years ago is fulfilled talent.

My point with Dyson and Monfries is that they have both played 56 and 57 games respectively and have been given ample opportunity to show their wears. Admittedly they played a few games where they were on and off the field and this is not their fault (I can only assume Sheeds didn't have complete faith or was busy working on one of the 20 project players we've had in the last 5 years). But, nevertheless that many games is enough in my eyes to determine whether or not you're going to make it. Sure, they might do a couple of good things per game but you can't just be content with a couple of good things every game going forward. I get the feely that supporters are happy to wrap them up in cotton wool and make excuses for them, instead of see their performance for what it is - poor.

As for Johns - don't you think the 15 other clubs and its supporters would sit back and think, "I'm glad he's not our list". I don't think he is a concern for other clubs, in fact he is an opportunity, generally to run rings around. That's hard, but I believe this an honest assessment of where he is at. You can't keep saying, "Oh he did that ok", which is quickly counteracted by a number of things he didn't do well.

And Rama, I agree he performed ok earlier in the season, but I don't think he is the future of this club. He may keep his spot on the list, but it is only because there is no one to fill his position. I don't think he was the exceptional player EFC people believe he was either prior to his battles with cancer. In my eyes he was a good player in a good side. And, I can see that as harsh because he is well loved and has overcome his personal battles (which is fantastic for him and everyone else), but I think football needs to be treated like a business, and not a benevolent society. And, despite Walls and Brereton taking the hard views on most things Essendon - lets be honest we only hate it because it hurts (not necessarily because they're are right or wrong).

And, yes the J.Johnsons and Peverills of the world are on the way out, but that's obvious because they can't get a game. And yes - Laycock is a talented bludger. Talented and a bludger.

My point with the first three was that out of our current crop of younger players they are the ones I don't think are good enough at AFL level, or just not good enough at the EFC. The problem as we know is that the others can't get on the paddock so they're deficiencies are well exposed.

Also, when I say at least 10 years for our next premiership, let's just say by the time we have a good midfield we will be without Lloyd, Lucas and Fletcher, which will more than likely a problem in that department come that time. And, if I hear someone bag Lloydy again, just look at the sought of service the guy gets at Essendon. The sort you get in the Kybungers 4ths. If we was at Geelong or Hawthorn he would be kicking 100 no doubt for mine.

I'm sure you'll provide an abusive rebuttle because you're no doubt one big tough "dude" .

On the contrary. I'd like to congratulate you on FINALLY making a decent case for what you had to say based on some well thought out, and factual assesments.

Lets face it though. Up until now, you had been crying like a little girl. And no, I 'm not just talking about this particular thread.

By the way. Garry O'Donnell, Adam Simpson, Paul Kelly, Lenny Hayes, Darren Bewick, Greg Williams, Dean Cox and numerous others would like to take issue with you about where you should be in your career after 60 odd games.

[bomberflyer]

Well I'd like to watch their 60th games and I'd bet they'd be a lot better than Monfries/Dyson/Johns. I'm happy sit with that risk.

[robbie67]

I think you'd be very surprised actually. (Johns excepted). Seeing as apart from Essendon, you only appear to be a casual observer of the game, i will give you someone a little closer to home. Mark McVeigh. How was his first 60?

[bomberflyer]

I see your point and have a few times now, but I have the feeling neiher Dyson nor Monfries have any amount of the ticker the players you have mentioned in your last two posts.

As for McVeigh, I believe he suffered from a lack of opportunity in the midfield. I always felt he showed promise in the midfield despite playing deep at either end of the ground. In the least he was super competitive and wore his heart on his sleeve. To me it's the little things about a player you pick-up on over the first 60 games, rather than the big "game-breaking" things. The smothers, tackling, chasing, body language, and general competitive nature. Not the "I'm lacking confidence". They need to take a teaspoon of concrete and harden the F%ck up!!!

I would be interested in seeing how others compare those you've mentioned to Dyson and Monfries.

I would suspect they'd support your thoughts given you've had 11,000-odd posts on this site.

[robbie67]

I see your point and have a few times now, but I have the feeling neiher Dyson nor Monfries have any amount of the ticker the players you have mentioned in your last two posts.

As for McVeigh, I believe he suffered from a lack of opportunity in the midfield. I always felt he showed promise in the midfield despite playing deep at either end of the ground. In the least he was super competitive and wore his heart on his sleeve. To me it's the little things about a player you pick-up on over the first 60 games, rather than the big "game-breaking" things. The smothers, tackling, chasing, body language, and general competitive nature. Not the "I'm lacking confidence". They need to take a teaspoon of concrete and harden the F%ck up!!!

I would be interested in seeing how others compare those you've mentioned to Dyson and Monfries.

I would suspect they'd support your thoughts given you've had 11,000-odd posts on this site.

I think you might find it may have something more to do with the fact, for about the last 18 years I have watched on average, about 6 games a week, so I may know what I am talking about.

[robbie67]

Oh just as a side note. If a player is often injured in his first couple of seasons, do you think he may be injury prone, and need to "harden the f*** up", or do you think we should give Alwyn Davey a chance to see what he may become before he gets added to your list of "out the doors" as well?

[bomberflyer]

I don't believe I've mentioned Alwyn Davey????? Why? Because there is no reason too.

And, if I were to make mention of player injuries I would make a judgement based on the types of injuries. Last year Davey broke his arm and this year he did his knee. I see no correlation - a part from bad luck.

I would be more concerned with someone like Scott Gumbleton and the amount of injuries he has had for a 2nd year player with respect to soft tissue injuries. That certainly requires escalation to experts outside of the club. I'm sure they would have done this by now??? However, I would certainly like a couple more years to see Gumbleton, especially given that he is a KPP, and his body needs to develop, he's only a matchstick atm. Obviously he has a lot of talent he went at 2 (???).

Also, I would be interested on your thoughts on Adrian Dordoro. I'm not sure our recruiting has been that good over the last 7-8 years. Obviously, Ryder was an exceptional pick-up - the kid is a freak, but outside of that have we picked up any show stoppers? Did Sheedy have too much of a say - given the amount of recycled players were at the club this decade? We know he loved a discarded piece of junk - and his self obsession of turning it into a treasure. Unfortunately, he his junk was at best fools gold.

In my second post on this subject I think I said that a GFC review needs to take base on injuries and injury management. Not only do we get too many injuries but a number become re-ocurring (ala Dempsey, Jetta and Gumbleton). I have the feeling John Quinn is a very good salesman and has somehow been able to avoid any responsibility of our injury epidemic. And, this is hardly new. Since our 2000 Premiership year I believe our luck with injuries has been terrible.

[robbie67]

The point I was making about Davey was (I dont think the sarcasm came across) that just like a couple of the others you are talking about, we would be acting on incomplete infomation. Football is littered with players that thrived once they got sorrounded by better talent. It is also full of players who were not quite the force they once were, when these playesr are no longer there to "highlight" their contribution. Think Blumfield, Heffernan, Chad Fletcher, to name but a few. We wont know how good Rciky Dyson is or isnt for another 2 years yet. I know I see him take people on break lines more than any other player on our list. I also am aware he doesnt get nearly enough of the football that he should. The thing is though, if Dyson was at Geelong or Hawthorn, he would probably be thought of in the same way that Gilbee or Hargrave are at the Dogs. I suspect he would be a star. But with us, he doesnt have the same space to move in, or the freedom, and confidence in his team mates to do those things. Football clubs are funny like that, the upper mid-range players are only ever as good as the club is going.

To address the subject of Dodoro, i have been leading the chant for him to be gone for years. But to be honest, its not his picks that have us in the current predicament. It's the f*** ups from 97 through 2002. Those players would now be at their peak. McAlister, Bolton, Heffernan, Henneman, Harvey, Davies. Those choices were at best poor, and at worst, a ******* disaster. We are now paying the price.

Quinn should be sacked immediately. Dont need an enquiry. He should be gone, the best person should be poached and hired, money no object.

[bomberflyer]

After having this conversion - I am now happy to say that I agree with everything you said in your last post.

I was talking with a guy at work a minute ago and he said, you never know if Monfries was drafted initially by Geelong, he could have developed in a different way (based on culture/coaching differences, etc) and could be good enough to have a chance of winning back-to-back flags. I guess it comes back to the drafting process - a lot of luck - and hoping the draftee and the club click as one.