robrulz5 wrote:Hurley will be that player. He will eventually be better than Cloke as well.
Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
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j-mac31
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
I think Cloke is pretty good, but not good enough to try to lure away and we have plenty of guys to develop anyway and this:
Aaron Francis is the Messiah.
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Windy_Hill
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
From the Herald Sun
In recent weeks, Dale Thomas, Scott Pendlebury and Dane Swan have been named not only Collingwood's best player, but separately the league's best midfielder. No doubt, they are weapons.
But Collingwood's best weapons - their Guns of Navarone - are Travis Cloke and Chris Dawes.
On Saturday night, Cloke and Dawes, took 16 marks between them, eight of them contested, kicked five goals, and underlined yet again the power of two premier marking forwards.
As a one-two tall forward combination, they are the best in the league.
Cloke's performance against St Kilda was monstrous and, if it's possible after a stellar 2010, he is bigger, stronger and clearly a more difficult opponent for smaller defenders.
When he and Dawes play like they did on Saturday night, the might of Collingwood is mightier.
We know their plethora of small forwards, and their ball-gathering mids, can be overwhelming for opponents, but nothing displays the true power of Collingwood than when Cloke takes pack marks, and Dawes gets to go against one opponent.
''Too big, too strong'' is an emphatic cliche.
Cloke's confidence must be absolute.
He leads contested marks by 16 from West Coast's Josh Kennedy and contested marks inside 50m by seven from Hawk Lance Franklin and Richmond's Jack Riewoldt.
He is a different player to Buddy and Riewoldt, for they play closer to goal.
But he is no less dominant. At the end of the season it would not surprise if Cloke is named All-Australia centre-half-forward, leaving the other two to fight for the full-forward position.
History tell us is it's important to have two big guns in the forward line - Dunstall/Brereton, Kernahan/Saplding, Lloyd/Lucas, Brown/Lynch and Franlin/Roughead.
And telling in the rise of the West Coast Eagles is the contribution of Kennedy and Quinten Lynch.
They have average three less possessions than Cloke and Dawes, three more marks, less contested marks, and have an average of 4.6 goals between them per match, as compared to Cloke/Dawes' 4.2
The Hawks, with Buddy Franklin and Jarryd Roughead, who is now a travelling ruckman, lead the competition in shared goals - 5.6 - and possessons - 36.6 - but trail signifcantly in contested marking.
The Lions pair of Mitch Clark and Jonathan Brown have impressive numbers, but they are la little out of whack because Brown has played just two games this year.
Of the other teams, Gold Coast is young, Essendon is looking for consistency, North Melbourne has solid forwards in Petrie and Hansen, Richmond needs Tyrone Vickery to help Jack, Melbourne struggles to mark the ball with Liam Jurrah and Jack Watts as their key pair, the Blues have Waite and O'hAilpin, and Henderson in the waiting, and Geelong has James Podsiadly and unknown as yet.
What it means is that among a 100 what-ifs to beat Collingwood, finding two defenders to curtail Cloke and Dawes is paramount.
Next Monday it will be Melbourne's Jared Rivers and James Frawley, and right now, that is as good a match-up as we could ask for.
CONTESTED MARKS CONTESTED MARKS INSIDE 50
T.Cloke (Coll) 42 T.Cloke (Coll) 22
J.Kennedy (WC) 26 L.Franklin (Haw) 15
A.Sandilands (Frem) 24 J.Riewoldt (Rich) 15
J.Podsiadly (Geel) 23 J.Podsiadly (Geel) 15
D.Cox (WC) 22 J.Kennedy (WC) 13
In recent weeks, Dale Thomas, Scott Pendlebury and Dane Swan have been named not only Collingwood's best player, but separately the league's best midfielder. No doubt, they are weapons.
But Collingwood's best weapons - their Guns of Navarone - are Travis Cloke and Chris Dawes.
On Saturday night, Cloke and Dawes, took 16 marks between them, eight of them contested, kicked five goals, and underlined yet again the power of two premier marking forwards.
As a one-two tall forward combination, they are the best in the league.
Cloke's performance against St Kilda was monstrous and, if it's possible after a stellar 2010, he is bigger, stronger and clearly a more difficult opponent for smaller defenders.
When he and Dawes play like they did on Saturday night, the might of Collingwood is mightier.
We know their plethora of small forwards, and their ball-gathering mids, can be overwhelming for opponents, but nothing displays the true power of Collingwood than when Cloke takes pack marks, and Dawes gets to go against one opponent.
''Too big, too strong'' is an emphatic cliche.
Cloke's confidence must be absolute.
He leads contested marks by 16 from West Coast's Josh Kennedy and contested marks inside 50m by seven from Hawk Lance Franklin and Richmond's Jack Riewoldt.
He is a different player to Buddy and Riewoldt, for they play closer to goal.
But he is no less dominant. At the end of the season it would not surprise if Cloke is named All-Australia centre-half-forward, leaving the other two to fight for the full-forward position.
History tell us is it's important to have two big guns in the forward line - Dunstall/Brereton, Kernahan/Saplding, Lloyd/Lucas, Brown/Lynch and Franlin/Roughead.
And telling in the rise of the West Coast Eagles is the contribution of Kennedy and Quinten Lynch.
They have average three less possessions than Cloke and Dawes, three more marks, less contested marks, and have an average of 4.6 goals between them per match, as compared to Cloke/Dawes' 4.2
The Hawks, with Buddy Franklin and Jarryd Roughead, who is now a travelling ruckman, lead the competition in shared goals - 5.6 - and possessons - 36.6 - but trail signifcantly in contested marking.
The Lions pair of Mitch Clark and Jonathan Brown have impressive numbers, but they are la little out of whack because Brown has played just two games this year.
Of the other teams, Gold Coast is young, Essendon is looking for consistency, North Melbourne has solid forwards in Petrie and Hansen, Richmond needs Tyrone Vickery to help Jack, Melbourne struggles to mark the ball with Liam Jurrah and Jack Watts as their key pair, the Blues have Waite and O'hAilpin, and Henderson in the waiting, and Geelong has James Podsiadly and unknown as yet.
What it means is that among a 100 what-ifs to beat Collingwood, finding two defenders to curtail Cloke and Dawes is paramount.
Next Monday it will be Melbourne's Jared Rivers and James Frawley, and right now, that is as good a match-up as we could ask for.
CONTESTED MARKS CONTESTED MARKS INSIDE 50
T.Cloke (Coll) 42 T.Cloke (Coll) 22
J.Kennedy (WC) 26 L.Franklin (Haw) 15
A.Sandilands (Frem) 24 J.Riewoldt (Rich) 15
J.Podsiadly (Geel) 23 J.Podsiadly (Geel) 15
D.Cox (WC) 22 J.Kennedy (WC) 13
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
We just need someone who stays in the goal square (ie doesnt run up the ground) and can lead ... no more than 10-15m and can either take a grab or make a contest (easier if his FB runs off him).
This role is tailor made for Willo or Neagle ... but despite the golden opportunity presented by circumstances - both have unimpressed through their attitude and lack of application.
Stenglien may be worth a look at - but will need to burn it up over the next 2 weeks.
This week, may be tempted to put Pears into the FF role (yes he is coming back from injury, but can make a physical contest) ... otherwise retain Hibberd and Browne and move Hardingham to FF.
In the long run - While Little (Bendigo) may be a possible recruit for the club, he is a lightish mid-height forward pocket option (but he scores well). Better suited for this FF role is Galea from Port ... he is 24 and despite the tatts plays taller than his 188 cm but strong on the lead. May be worth a late draft pick.
This role is tailor made for Willo or Neagle ... but despite the golden opportunity presented by circumstances - both have unimpressed through their attitude and lack of application.
Stenglien may be worth a look at - but will need to burn it up over the next 2 weeks.
This week, may be tempted to put Pears into the FF role (yes he is coming back from injury, but can make a physical contest) ... otherwise retain Hibberd and Browne and move Hardingham to FF.
In the long run - While Little (Bendigo) may be a possible recruit for the club, he is a lightish mid-height forward pocket option (but he scores well). Better suited for this FF role is Galea from Port ... he is 24 and despite the tatts plays taller than his 188 cm but strong on the lead. May be worth a late draft pick.
dices ad adepto futui (tell them to f*** off)
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Had we chased Kennedy we would be a top 4 side.
Had Gumby not been injured we would be a top 4 side.
As for actually chasing Cloke, has anyone heard Jim or someone from Essendon say that we were chasing Cloke? Seems like it was all orchastrated by his father (as a good manager would do) and only reported by one "journalist" (Barrett)
Had Gumby not been injured we would be a top 4 side.
As for actually chasing Cloke, has anyone heard Jim or someone from Essendon say that we were chasing Cloke? Seems like it was all orchastrated by his father (as a good manager would do) and only reported by one "journalist" (Barrett)
He kicks on the left
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
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Windy_Hill
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Rossoneri wrote:Had we chased Kennedy we would be a top 4 side.
Had Gumby not been injured we would be a top 4 side.
As for actually chasing Cloke, has anyone heard Jim or someone from Essendon say that we were chasing Cloke? Seems like it was all orchastrated by his father (as a good manager would do) and only reported by one "journalist" (Barrett)
Essendon put an offer on the table - I know that for a fact.
The exact details of the offer I am unaware of. I can only assume that HIrd sanctioned the deal?
Either way, I think Cloke has proven himself to be a more than adequate player and I must admit, I am somewhat surprised at the lack of respect shown towards his footballing talents amongst some of the better credentialled posters on BT. I dont think anyone would seriously complain if he was doing for us, what he does for Collingwood
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
How do you know that for a fact? Do we have a spy in Dubai?Windy_Hill wrote:Essendon put an offer on the table - I know that for a fact.
I can come on here and say that I know for a fact we did not have a crack at him and how would anyone know?
Setting the bar a bit low there aren't you? I would not complain if we had Jude Bolton or Dale Thomas, or Marc Murphy or Cyril Rioli do for us what they are doing for their respective teams.Windy_Hill wrote: Either way, I think Cloke has proven himself to be a more than adequate player and I must admit, I am somewhat surprised at the lack of respect shown towards his footballing talents amongst some of the better credentialled posters on BT. I dont think anyone would seriously complain if he was doing for us, what he does for Collingwood
He kicks on the left
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
LOL. Come back to me when he destroys teams like the true CHF champions mentioned in this thread. You make it sound like he's killing the Coleman Medal or that he is the Brownlow favourite....
Cloke is such a weapon that Keppers Bradley has 3 less goals than him. So has Crameri for that matter.
Your overrating of Cloke would do Eddie McGuire proud.
Cloke is such a weapon that Keppers Bradley has 3 less goals than him. So has Crameri for that matter.
Your overrating of Cloke would do Eddie McGuire proud.
Essendunny
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Windy_Hill
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
I think I used the word "has proven himself to be more than adequate"
Not trying to over rate the guy at all. I believe he has played some decent football. My point of bringing up this topic is that in our last 2 games, we clearly lacked a marking forward of Cloke's ilk. I believe had we had such a player we may have won the last two games and possibly have been in the Top 4. If you look at our F50 entries in the last 2 games, we were reasonably dominant - just not converting. I dont think our game is to far off the boil but we clearly lack a strong contested marker.
FFS, I am starting to get bored of having to defend a pretty reasonable proposition. I posted the Heral Sun story as a form of support to my point - no other reason.
Perhaps I should have used Jon Brown as the type of player instead of Cloke. But then, we werent talking to Brown in the off season. What is apparent is that Hird's game plan, obviously from very early days, called for a strong marking forward. Which would explain why they were talking to Clokes father.
And by the way Rosso, havent been in Dubai for quite a while.
Not trying to over rate the guy at all. I believe he has played some decent football. My point of bringing up this topic is that in our last 2 games, we clearly lacked a marking forward of Cloke's ilk. I believe had we had such a player we may have won the last two games and possibly have been in the Top 4. If you look at our F50 entries in the last 2 games, we were reasonably dominant - just not converting. I dont think our game is to far off the boil but we clearly lack a strong contested marker.
FFS, I am starting to get bored of having to defend a pretty reasonable proposition. I posted the Heral Sun story as a form of support to my point - no other reason.
Perhaps I should have used Jon Brown as the type of player instead of Cloke. But then, we werent talking to Brown in the off season. What is apparent is that Hird's game plan, obviously from very early days, called for a strong marking forward. Which would explain why they were talking to Clokes father.
And by the way Rosso, havent been in Dubai for quite a while.
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Where are you now Windy?
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Hurley coming back this week will help hopefully but only if we scrap the 3 ruck selection policy.
Our forward structure went to shit the moment we started selecting three rucks. Hurley early season form went to the shitter and he was moved into the backline because he wasn't having any impact with Hille, Ryder and Crameri spending most of their time in the forward line.
It f***** with Ryder's early season form where he was playing ruck and floating forward.
It has f***** with Crameri's form because suddenly with HurlEy moving back and then being out injured he has found himself lining up against the oppositions best key defender, instead of the 2nd or 3rd tall defender. I mean for f*** sake, the bloke as played 13 games (10 as a marking forward option) and he found himself with the reigning All Australian fullback lining up on him on Friday night.
Noone is leading at the ball carrier, for some reason they all want to try and take f****** contested marks, which you are going to struggle to do with repeated forward entries due to the press because you have essentially flooded your forward line with your own players and their opposition counterparts, so you aren't going to get one on one marking contests.
So we need to drop a ruckman, on form and endeavour it should be f****** Ryder.However, because we are playing on the open spaces of Subi, his extra athleticism wins him a one week reprieve to show that he actually gives a flying f***.
Absolutely no excuses, no Sandilands, gets first ruck, gets to ruck 60-70% of gametime. If he can't have an impact and play with some intensity and shows that he gives a shit, he gets a couple of weeks at Bendigo to have a think about it.
Hurley to play CHF, starting about 30-40 metres out from goal. Crameri and Hille to set up out of the goalsquare and lead at the ball carrier and only call for it to be kicked onto their head if there is no space to lead into. As such we might have to set up our forward press more across the centre of the goal instead of 60-70m out from goal just so the forward line isn't so clogged that there isn't any space for these blokes to lead into
Our forward structure went to shit the moment we started selecting three rucks. Hurley early season form went to the shitter and he was moved into the backline because he wasn't having any impact with Hille, Ryder and Crameri spending most of their time in the forward line.
It f***** with Ryder's early season form where he was playing ruck and floating forward.
It has f***** with Crameri's form because suddenly with HurlEy moving back and then being out injured he has found himself lining up against the oppositions best key defender, instead of the 2nd or 3rd tall defender. I mean for f*** sake, the bloke as played 13 games (10 as a marking forward option) and he found himself with the reigning All Australian fullback lining up on him on Friday night.
Noone is leading at the ball carrier, for some reason they all want to try and take f****** contested marks, which you are going to struggle to do with repeated forward entries due to the press because you have essentially flooded your forward line with your own players and their opposition counterparts, so you aren't going to get one on one marking contests.
So we need to drop a ruckman, on form and endeavour it should be f****** Ryder.However, because we are playing on the open spaces of Subi, his extra athleticism wins him a one week reprieve to show that he actually gives a flying f***.
Absolutely no excuses, no Sandilands, gets first ruck, gets to ruck 60-70% of gametime. If he can't have an impact and play with some intensity and shows that he gives a shit, he gets a couple of weeks at Bendigo to have a think about it.
Hurley to play CHF, starting about 30-40 metres out from goal. Crameri and Hille to set up out of the goalsquare and lead at the ball carrier and only call for it to be kicked onto their head if there is no space to lead into. As such we might have to set up our forward press more across the centre of the goal instead of 60-70m out from goal just so the forward line isn't so clogged that there isn't any space for these blokes to lead into
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j-mac31
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
So what say you of Hurley being out? Which has been mentioned by several.Windy_Hill wrote:I believe he has played some decent football. My point of bringing up this topic is that in our last 2 games, we clearly lacked a marking forward of Cloke's ilk. I believe had we had such a player we may have won the last two games and possibly have been in the Top 4. If you look at our F50 entries in the last 2 games, we were reasonably dominant - just not converting. I dont think our game is to far off the boil but we clearly lack a strong contested marker.
Aaron Francis is the Messiah.
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j-mac31
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
We should have gone for the other Josh Kennedy (and McGlynn) a couple of years back.Rossoneri wrote:Had we chased Kennedy we would be a top 4 side.
Aaron Francis is the Messiah.
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Any tall forward would look good at Collingwood at the moment. I'd back any of Ryder, Hille, Crameri or Hurley to do as well, if not better, than Cloke in the Collingwood team.Windy_Hill wrote:As you all know, Hird went out of his way to try to lure Travis Cloke to Essendon. Its clear from our game plan that Hirdy always envisaged long balls to a contested mark. Cloke is clearly the best contested marking forward in the league at the moment and he or a player like him appears to be the missing link in our game plan. Ryder and Hille are not grabbing contested marks. Makes me think whether Gumby, despite the stop start progress in his career, could ultimately be the man. He is a great mark of the pill and I reckon would fit nicely into the current long ball game plan
Any thoughts?
Hille is a better contested mark than Cloke and a better kick. I'd take him any day of the week.
It's naive to look at players in good teams and suggest they will be the same player or as effective in a shit team. Let me run these names past you: Blumfield, Caracella, Heffernan...hell even Reiwoldt at the moment can't get a kick for the Saints and he's about the best tall forard going around.
Like sand through the hour glass, so are the days at the Essendon Football Club.
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little_ripper
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
when Ryder was in good form earlier in the season he was taking some great contested grabs in the forward 50.
IMO its the three rucks which has farked us.
And for all those that think the frikkin world of Hille/Ryder and Bellchambers. They have been beaten by chumps in the past month of football.
Aside from being ordinary when up forward, I would love to know the hit outs to advantage stats of the past couple of weeks sans watson too. geezus it must be horrendous.
IMO its the three rucks which has farked us.
And for all those that think the frikkin world of Hille/Ryder and Bellchambers. They have been beaten by chumps in the past month of football.
Aside from being ordinary when up forward, I would love to know the hit outs to advantage stats of the past couple of weeks sans watson too. geezus it must be horrendous.
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Windy_Hill
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tonysoprano
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Windy are you Peter Hanlon?Windy_Hill wrote:http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/c ... 1ft6w.html
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Who would have thought that there would be more by overrated hype involving a Collingwood player journos?
Essendunny
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Windy_Hill
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
BenDoolan wrote:Who would have thought that there would be more by overrated hype involving a Collingwood player journos?
C'mon BD, you gotta be coming around just a little....
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Windy_Hill
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Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Sorry, I am not trying to be childish about this but I couldnt help but notice another huge game by the big man today - 20 odd disposals - 6 goals.
Weak opposition I guess.
Weak opposition I guess.
Re: Had we got Cloke T, we would be a Top 4 Side
Went to the game today...how the hell does he get free all the time in the goal square. Seen it way too many times. Very impressed with Cloke & Dawes...having a the tall big power forwards up there that are just as good below knee level to create play, keep the play going etc. They don't fire all the time, its either one or the other but they are important to their structure. Can't wait to have two power forwards again..surely they haven't gone out of the game. Hurley would definitely be one I'd tip and Gumbleton (as BennyD calls him Crumbleton) if he can get on the park. Miss the days of Lloyd and Lucas sometimes. I know not relevant to current situation but you know...