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Re: f*** off..c***

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:54 pm
by nudder12
s'dreams wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:05 pm
I think that success will be the only thing that salves the still gaping wounds.
Success may put all this in a shallow grave, but it'll always and forever be bubbling away under there, and occasionally the stench will rise through to remind us.

Re: f*** off..c***

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:53 am
by boncer34
BenDoolan wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 am

There’s no record of that.[
I'll agree to disagree on this with you but:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... c79f4f9aa5
He wasn’t consulted when players’ blood samples were allegedly sent interstate to check for the WADA-banned substance Insulin Growth Factor 1 in November 2011.
Believe me when I say there is nothing alleged about that.

Re: f*** off..c***

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:18 am
by BenDoolan
boncer34 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:53 am
BenDoolan wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:43 am

There’s no record of that.[
I'll agree to disagree on this with you but:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/ ... c79f4f9aa5
He wasn’t consulted when players’ blood samples were allegedly sent interstate to check for the WADA-banned substance Insulin Growth Factor 1 in November 2011.
Believe me when I say there is nothing alleged about that.
Very vague. Any idea who it was sent to or what the result of the tests were?

In any case, does it really matter? We know we kept things from Reid. That’s not the point of the argument. The argument is about what the AFL knew, and what they did / didn’t do.

This says it all for me. They knew what we were up to, but failed to act to shut down their concerns...
The AFL had become sufficiently concerned by 2012 that its advice had been ignored, and by persistent rumours and misgivings of other clubs about what Essendon was doing, to send blood specimens to Cologne in Germany, at the time one of only two laboratories in the world capable of testing for peptides.

According to Harcourt, “nothing came” out of those tests. What he actually meant was no positive results were recorded. But he also spoke of having to monitor players for the next five to 10 years for potential hormonal issues or cancers as a result of “this crazy activity that individuals allowed to occur at the club”.

That’s pretty dramatic stuff, obviously of grave concern to the keepers of our code. So if the AFL’s fears were that transparent, why did it wait a full year to apply any penalties to Essendon for its shocking administration and disregard for its own players’ welfare? Or even continue to counsel and keep tabs on the club and the players Harcourt said it was so worried about?

Former AFL chief executive Andrew Demetriou had already expressed publicly his concerns about the creeping influence of sports science in the game, but denied repeatedly that he knew specific details about the club or clubs involved prior to Essendon’s “self-reporting” in February last year.

Are we supposed to swallow the possibility that the AFL’s chief medical officer was as worried by what was going on as his conference speech indicated, yet somehow failed to alert his boss to those concerns?
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.the ... zsurt.html

Re: f*** off..c***

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:13 am
by boncer34
Very vague?

Benny please. We sent blood samples interstate to test if the players had WADA banned substances in them, that's not vague at all. Its no more vague then the AFL sent the players blood to Germany to get it tested for WADA banned substances.

Clearly the results were negative, as the AFL's version hence why we weren't hung, drawn and quartered there.

And absolutely it matters, the argument is the AFL should've known and no way we could've kept it hidden from them. Well we kept it hidden from Reid so how come we kept it hidden from the bloke in contact with the players every day but its so implausible we kept it from the AFL?

And that article right there says that we ignored the AFL's warnings (which I have repeatedly said we did and demonstates the AFL didn't sit on its hands it clearly warned us repeatedly) and they were sufficiently concerned enough to step in and send players bloods away (again not a sign of inaction by them). What you're neglecting to mention is that once the AFL stepped in and sent away the bloods we stopped the program.

So the timeline was

Hird asks about peptides
AFL warn him against it
Essendon hires Dank
AFL asks about Dank
We say he's not running a team wide program
AFL accepts that
AFL starts cluing on that we lied to them
AFL sends bloods away
Club stops program


Doesn't scream inactivity to me. Sounds like they took very reasonable steps, they warned us, we said we listened, they believed us, once they became concerned we hadn't listened they sent the bloods off.

The reason for the full year of penalties was once the bloods came back negative as far as the AFL was concerned we'd done nothing illegal so why punish? However as we know Feb 2013 happened, the "optics" became muddy and they had to be seen to act. Everything post Feb 2013 is garbage, fully support that. But everything leading up to that is on the club.

Its my absolute last post on the topic but just to restate it. The AFL warned us against the program, the AFL checked on why we hired Dank, the AFL kept tabs and when it became clear Dank had run a program the AFL sent bloods off to be tested.

The fact we hid it from Reid and its widely accepted we did clearly demonstrates that it was entirely plausible we hid the worst of it from the AFL until after it stopped.

Re: f*** off..c***

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:09 pm
by Windy_Hill
So based on the timeline mentioned above, I stand by my claim that the club was naive/stupid but never set out to deliberately cheat and stopped the program once it was clear that they may be overstepping the mark and obviously because of the “optics”

Hird encouraged a cutting edge supplements program provided it was legal

Dank claims it was although there remains doubts as to how legal his supplements were/were not

When suspicions arose, both the club and the AFL had the samples tested

The samples tested negative

Everything after this point was a cluster f*** whereby the club was thrown under a bus through self administered stupidity, AFL commercial agenda and a gullible media looking to win Walkleys

Re: f*** off..c***

Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:54 pm
by nudder12
Windy_Hill wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:09 pm
So based on the timeline mentioned above, I stand by my claim that the club was naive/stupid but never set out to deliberately cheat and stopped the program once it was clear that they may be overstepping the mark and obviously because of the “optics”

Hird encouraged a cutting edge supplements program provided it was legal

Dank claims it was although there remains doubts as to how legal his supplements were/were not

When suspicions arose, both the club and the AFL had the samples tested

The samples tested negative

Everything after this point was a cluster f*** whereby the club was thrown under a bus through self administered stupidity, AFL commercial agenda and a gullible media looking to win Walkleys
You can claim that, but maybe it went more like.....
....the Club embarked on an illegal drugs program, and once it became clear they were overstepping the mark, they decided it better end.
Just sayin'.
I don't know. Who does??
The biggest thing to me in this whole argument, is that Dank has never produced ANY evidence of his program's legality. There can only be one reason for that......has has NO evidence. NONE.
You can all decide for yourselves why that is the case.
And, before anyone says it, maybe the Club had no idea and it was all Dank's fault, BUT it was the Club's duty to ensure legality - see my previous comment on that.

Re: f*** off..c***

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:36 am
by BenDoolan
boncer34 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:13 am
Very vague?

Benny please. We sent blood samples interstate to test if the players had WADA banned substances in them, that's not vague at all. Its no more vague then the AFL sent the players blood to Germany to get it tested for WADA banned substances.
Yeah, very vague. Like, WHO sent the blood samples to WHICH state, and WHAT was the result? No info whatsoever. As opposed to THE AFL sent blood samples to COLOGNE in Germany, and the result was negative. See the difference?
Clearly the results were negative, as the AFL's version hence why we weren't hung, drawn and quartered there.
Yeah, clearly. It would be nice if there is some sort of record of this don’t you think? I mean TWO tests came back negative instead of one. But there is no mention of this anywhere.
And absolutely it matters, the argument is the AFL should've known and no way we could've kept it hidden from them. Well we kept it hidden from Reid so how come we kept it hidden from the bloke in contact with the players every day but its so implausible we kept it from the AFL?
You make me laugh. Other clubs knew about the program lol. Clubs tipped off the AFL. They knew. You just fail to acknowledge it. Don’t know why you’re protecting these cretins.
And that article right there says that we ignored the AFL's warnings (which I have repeatedly said we did and demonstates the AFL didn't sit on its hands it clearly warned us repeatedly) and they were sufficiently concerned enough to step in and send players bloods away (again not a sign of inaction by them). What you're neglecting to mention is that once the AFL stepped in and sent away the bloods we stopped the program.
Do you know when EFC administrators asked Dank to stop the program? May 2012. Did he stop? Not entirely. Do you know when Dank was sacked? September 2012. Do you know when the bloods were sent? Over to you...
So the timeline was

Hird asks about peptides
AFL warn him against it
Essendon hires Dank
AFL asks about Dank
We say he's not running a team wide program
AFL accepts that
AFL starts cluing on that we lied to them
AFL sends bloods away
Club stops program


Doesn't scream inactivity to me. Sounds like they took very reasonable steps, they warned us, we said we listened, they believed us, once they became concerned we hadn't listened they sent the bloods off.
It’s not about “inactivity” or even “activity”. It’s about accountability. As they run the game, and govern it, they failed in their duty of care to the players. You can try and excuse them all you like, but they are responsible and culpable. An integrity officer allowed the integrity of the game to be enormously damaged. 12 clubs were found with systemic issues in their governance. He failed, simple as that. Blame all the individual clubs all you want, but there is an officer who is employed to oversee the integrity of the competition.
The reason for the full year of penalties was once the bloods came back negative as far as the AFL was concerned we'd done nothing illegal so why punish? However as we know Feb 2013 happened, the "optics" became muddy and they had to be seen to act. Everything post Feb 2013 is garbage, fully support that. But everything leading up to that is on the club.
See above.
Its my absolute last post on the topic but just to restate it. The AFL warned us against the program, the AFL checked on why we hired Dank, the AFL kept tabs and when it became clear Dank had run a program the AFL sent bloods off to be tested.

The fact we hid it from Reid and its widely accepted we did clearly demonstrates that it was entirely plausible we hid the worst of it from the AFL until after it stopped.
No matter how many times you say it, Clothier was employed to ensure the integrity of the game. He failed in his follow ups to stop it once he was tipped off. Instead of insisting the practice stopped, they secretly sent bloods off for testing. Disgrace.

Re: f*** off..c***

Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:50 am
by boncer34
Benny I haven't failed to acknowledge anything. We just strongly disagree.

All good. No matter how many times we go back and forth facts are facts and we clearly read them differently.