Charter...4 Corners

[auditor]

Viewing 4 corners last night

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#/view/32930

Shane Charter was adamant that Hird did not use Performance enhancing drugs during his relationship with him.

Stuart Cormack (sacked) Essendon sacked fitness coach suggests even though there was a push to get players to bulk up quickly there was never any suggestion that any thing illegal would take place.

Comments via David Kenely from the company that manufactures AOD9604...
That about half a dozen Essendon players were using it but Kenely clearly states there is NO anabolic effect regarding its use.
He also claims that the Crimes report has a lack of understanding in relation to AOD9604.

Interesting show overall.

[BenDoolan]

There's one thing that stood out for me in that program. If the anti doping agencies don't know if certain substances are banned or not, how are the players supposed to know?

[j-mac31]

I was going to put this in the 'f*** off' thread.

And [Charter] again defended one of his former clients, Essendon coach James Hird - a key figure in the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority probe into the Bombers' 2012 supplements program.
"These people aren't associated with performance-enhancing drugs," Charter said in a reference to Hird. "He's the opposite; he's against anything that would affect the player, the credibility of the industry. Certainly James Hird would not go anywhere near that."

Essendon's former fitness coach, Stuart Cormack, also featured in the broad-ranging program that investigated the use of performance-enhancing drugs across many sports in Australia. Cormack said he disagreed with the acceleration of Essendon's fitness program, but said the methods were above board.
"There was certainly a desire to, you know, get the athletes bigger and stronger fairly quickly but … there was never a suggestion from anyone that that would involve … practices that I wasn't comfortable with from a legal perspective,'' he said.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/a ... 2iaqi.html

[billyduckworth]

I watched a fair bit of the program. It seemed to me to reinforce what I already thought:

(a) that ASADA are a bunch of amateurs and bunglers that spend years investigating people but very seldom find anything
(b) that the government panicked or tried to make mileage out of it in its "darkest days" press conference but now have lots of egg on their faces, because when all is said and done, they can't prove anything
(c) statements from Chartres (or whatever his name is), Cormack, Dank etc. all say Hird was insistent that they stay WITHIN the guidelines
(d) many of the guidelines are confusing and/or make very little sense

What a mess....

[BenDoolan]

I watched a fair bit of the program. It seemed to me to reinforce what I already thought:

(a) that ASADA are a bunch of amateurs and bunglers that spend years investigating people but very seldom find anything
(b) that the government panicked or tried to make mileage out of it in its "darkest days" press conference but now have lots of egg on their faces, because when all is said and done, they can't prove anything
(c) statements from Chartres (or whatever his name is), Cormack, Dank etc. all say Hird was insistent that they stay WITHIN the guidelines
(d) many of the guidelines are confusing and/or make very little sense

What a mess....

Correct on all accounts.

[sconsey]

AOD9604 has been added to the S.O list....as in the "catch all" list....

[JockStraps]

There's one thing that stood out for me in that program. If the anti doping agencies don't know if certain substances are banned or not, how are the players supposed to know?

Simple, anything not approved is considered prohibited until otherwise advised

Its falls under the "catch all" policy


However, if we are to believe the club and Danks, ASADA has apparently given the all clear on the anti-obesity drug

Only now are they officially listing it as banned.....what a coincidence

Arse covering me thinks

[s'dreams]

According to the Age

WADA declares obesity drug illegal
DateApril 23, 2013 - 10:05AM 775 reading now(774)
Read laterRichard Baker and Nick McKenzieZoom in on this story. Explore all there is to know.

AFL NRL Essendon ..

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... z2RFXvHymk

No No No to the subbies at the Age - it is "now" prohibited not illegal. Illegal is something like ummm... Age journos hacking personal data from a private database and then publishing... but these two wouldn't do that... would they?

Cheers s'd

[j-mac31]

[Dank] said he believed the substance complied with anti-doping regulations at the time. Essendon is also believed to have received advice from anti-doping authorities last year that suggested the use of AOD-9604 was permitted.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... z2RGCiyilp

Surely they can't actually retrospectively punish players for something that wasn't banned at the time?

[BenDoolan]

[Dank] said he believed the substance complied with anti-doping regulations at the time. Essendon is also believed to have received advice from anti-doping authorities last year that suggested the use of AOD-9604 was permitted.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... z2RGCiyilp

Surely they can't actually retrospectively punish players for something that wasn't banned at the time?

It was banned at the time and it may appear that ASADA have given us the wrong advice. Either way were f***** I believe.

[rockhole]

[Dank] said he believed the substance complied with anti-doping regulations at the time. Essendon is also believed to have received advice from anti-doping authorities last year that suggested the use of AOD-9604 was permitted.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... z2RGCiyilp

Surely they can't actually retrospectively punish players for something that wasn't banned at the time?

It was banned at the time and it may appear that ASADA have given us the wrong advice. Either way were f***** I believe.

From the Sun's website:

"
It is alleged anti-obesity drug AOD-9604, which has not been cleared for human use, was administered to at least six Essendon players last year by controversial sports scientist Stephen Dank.

Confusion has surrounded the status of the growth hormone with the Australian Crime Commission stating in its Drugs in Sport report that the drug was not yet banned"

Two questions arise from this.

1. It still comes down to Dank's word against everyone else.

2. Is ASADA indulging in a bit of "retrospectivity" when the ACC stated quite clearly that the drug was not yet banned.

I detect some more arse covering in the air and the term "amateur hour" is starting to form in my tiny brain.

[BenDoolan]

[Dank] said he believed the substance complied with anti-doping regulations at the time. Essendon is also believed to have received advice from anti-doping authorities last year that suggested the use of AOD-9604 was permitted.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/w ... z2RGCiyilp

Surely they can't actually retrospectively punish players for something that wasn't banned at the time?

It was banned at the time and it may appear that ASADA have given us the wrong advice. Either way were f***** I believe.

From the Sun's website:

"
It is alleged anti-obesity drug AOD-9604, which has not been cleared for human use, was administered to at least six Essendon players last year by controversial sports scientist Stephen Dank.

Confusion has surrounded the status of the growth hormone with the Australian Crime Commission stating in its Drugs in Sport report that the drug was not yet banned"

Two questions arise from this.

1. It still comes down to Dank's word against everyone else.

2. Is ASADA indulging in a bit of "retrospectivity" when the ACC stated quite clearly that the drug was not yet banned.

I detect some more arse covering in the air and the term "amateur hour" is starting to form in my tiny brain.

Don't understand what the ACC has to do with the status of a particular drug in sport. I thought WADA was the authority on it....

[s'dreams]

[Don't understand what the ACC has to do with the status of a particular drug in sport. I thought WADA was the authority on it....

1. Debatable whether ASADA/WADA is the authority given the Keystone Kops behaviour
2. ACC is driving a lot of this hoo haa around the investigation - political [s]interference[/s] guidence anyone?

s'd

[BenDoolan]

[Don't understand what the ACC has to do with the status of a particular drug in sport. I thought WADA was the authority on it....

1. Debatable whether ASADA/WADA is the authority given the Keystone Kops behaviour
2. ACC is driving a lot of this hoo haa around the investigation - political [s]interference[/s] guidence anyone?

s'd

I think WADA has been pretty clear. It's ASADA that's been shoddy. If they had previously given the thumbs up on a substance that is classified as banned under the WADA code, then I am not comfortable with ASADA conducting this investigation. If they had given us permission (and that is the claim), then ASADA themselves need to be investigated to determine their involvement in this whole saga.

It's like a police officer giving you directions to proceed through an intersection and then stopping you for failing to obey a traffic signal. Seems f***** up to me...

[Sartorius]

[Don't understand what the ACC has to do with the status of a particular drug in sport. I thought WADA was the authority on it....

1. Debatable whether ASADA/WADA is the authority given the Keystone Kops behaviour
2. ACC is driving a lot of this hoo haa around the investigation - political [s]interference[/s] guidence anyone?

s'd

I think WADA has been pretty clear. It's ASADA that's been shoddy. If they had previously given the thumbs up on a substance that is classified as banned under the WADA code, then I am not comfortable with ASADA conducting this investigation. If they had given us permission (and that is the claim), then ASADA themselves need to be investigated to determine their involvement in this whole saga.

It's like a police officer giving you directions to proceed through an intersection and then stopping you for failing to obey a traffic signal. Seems f***** up to me...

Agree, and this is probably a reason why we brought about the ziggy investigation. If he finds information that asada ticked off that we could use aod (and there should always be written evidence when doing these sorts of things) then they have something to answer for and not us. The longer this goes on the more asada is coming across as incompetent.

[dom_105]

Agree, and this is probably a reason why we brought about the ziggy investigation. If he finds information that asada ticked off that we could use aod (and there should always be written evidence when doing these sorts of things) then they have something to answer for and not us. The longer this goes on the more asada is coming across as incompetent.

There's the ticket out of this mess.

ASADA won't impose a penalty on a individual who has followed their directions in regards to the use of a supplement.

They would be laughed out of every court in the land.

[Sismis]

I think this is actually good news. It is a banned substance, but not performance enhancing. They can hit us with a fine for governance and there shouldn't be any suspensions.

It's some pretty black humour that we are facing sanction for taking a supplement that was supposed to speed up recovery from injury.....

[JockStraps]

Which players should be worried, the one's that had soft tissue injuries last year


Oh Christ, that was all of them....

[auditor]

Everything that has come out over the last couple of weeks e.g Melbourne players and Dank, Monday nights revelations from Charter on 4 corners etc. has really muddied the already muddy waters in this whole sorry issue.

At the end of the day and in my opinion the whole system sucks from the governance at Essendon to the incompetence of the ACC, AFL and ASADA.
I feel any punishment handed out will be along the lines of massive fines and mild suspensions if any.

What has happened must be used as a watershed event and all should learn from it. It clearly indicates flaws in all systems related to Drugs in our game and any attempt by ASADA or the AFL in sanctioning Essendon heavily will obviously meet heavy resistance via the Bombers lawyers.

It could get ugly but it doesn’t have to be that way. As long as everybody accepts that the flaws in the system as a whole are to blame them it should be quite easy to put in place what has sadly been missing, Professionalism and Accountability.

[BenDoolan]

Everything that has come out over the last couple of weeks e.g Melbourne players and Dank, Monday nights revelations from Charter on 4 corners etc. has really muddied the already muddy waters in this whole sorry issue.

At the end of the day and in my opinion the whole system sucks from the governance at Essendon to the incompetence of the ACC, AFL and ASADA.
I feel any punishment handed out will be along the lines of massive fines and mild suspensions if any.

What has happened must be used as a watershed event and all should learn from it. It clearly indicates flaws in all systems related to Drugs in our game and any attempt by ASADA or the AFL in sanctioning Essendon heavily will obviously meet heavy resistance via the Bombers lawyers.

It could get ugly but it doesn’t have to be that way. As long as everybody accepts that the flaws in the system as a whole are to blame them it should be quite easy to put in place what has sadly been missing, Professionalism and Accountability.

Yep, excellent post. Fully agree.