Fix the Rules Once and For All

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Windy_Hill
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Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by Windy_Hill » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:30 pm

So much grey area in the rules of or game. The constant tinkering means something is not right. Here is my take on the tweaks that need to be implemented to remove the subjectivity and uncertainty from the game. , I can appreciate many saying these are just more rule changes so what’s the point? The point is these changes should stand the test of time, remove contentious decisions and ensure a better game.

1. Touched Ball. Why is it just a point if the ball is touched of the boot yet passes clearly through the middle of the big sticks? It makes no sense when yo think about it. In my opinion removing this rule would remove the intrusion of many unnecessary goal reviews. It doesn’t matter if it has been touched, as long as the ball has been kicked (not rushed or punched across the line). A goal should also stand if it hits the post and passes through the goals. If the ball hits the post and ricochets back into play then play on.

2. Deliberate Out of Bounds. This is a stupid and inconsistently applied rule yet the intentions are good. Let’s take out the subjectivity and guess work by simply awarding a kick to the opposition any time the ball goes out of bounds. The only proviso should be that if this happens in either forward 50, the team with the ball cannot take a direct shot at goal and must kick the ball into play first. If the ball for some reason bounces at right angles and goes through the posts, then it will be no score with a kick out to the defending team being awarded. Implementing this rule will ensure a faster and more open game with less throw in congestion.

3. Holding the ball. This rule has remained subjective for ever it seems so it’s time to remove the subjectivity. A player who takes possession of the ball will be deemed Holding the Ball if he is tackled by an opponent after having had prior opportunity to dispose of the ball by hand or foot or disposed of the ball illegally. So let’s break this down. Prior opportunity should mean that the player has had a reasonable chance to with kick or handball before the tackle. That essentially mean he has about 1 to 2 seconds to release the ball before a tackle is laid. An instant tackle where there is no reasonable prior opportunity will result in a ball up. The exception to this is if the player goes to ground to take possession, dives on a loose ball, or while prone on the ground, takes possession of the ball. In these cases, regardless of prior opportunity the player has illegally taken possession of the ball and will be immediately penalized. This basically means if you do any of the above, you are can only knock the ball off the ground, never take possession. If you have had prior opportunity and are tackled forcing the ball to be knocked out in the process of the tackle, that is an immediate Holding the Ball. None of this rubbish you see when the umpire says the ball was knocked out during the tackle. The tackler should be rewarded either way. So I suppose the biggest change here is simply prohibiting any player going to ground to take possession. This is the same rule as used in Gaelic Football. I feel you go to ground and reach out to grab the ball you will be penalized if tackled....You must knock the ball away.

4. 15m Kicks. Another strange traditional rule that must be incorrectly adjudicated 20 times a game. It also relies on the umpire have some sort of in built GPS to track ball distance. This is plain amateur hour. Just make it simple. Any kick that is marked on the full, regardless of distance is a fair mark. Any handball is play on.

5. Centre Bounce....just get rid of it. A classic example was Bellchambers giving up a free kick, unfairly penalized, in the game against GWS because the umpire couldn’t bounce the ball straight up. The result was Bellchambers was forced to hold his ground to be at the fall of the ball and was interpreted to have “blocked” his opponent. It’s amateurish to see the umpires consistently bouncing the ball incorrectly with the game being stopped for a second “ball up”. They don’t even reset the damn clock. Those few seconds lost every game will one day cost a team a grand final. Make the game fair and simple toss the ball straight up so both ruckman have a fair and equal chance to compete. If it’s good enough for the NBA, it’s good enough for us.

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Windy_Hill
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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by Windy_Hill » Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:44 pm

One final point and I do apologize for the lengthy narrative, umpires should not require any skills other than decision making. Bouncing the ball and throwing the ball in from an out of bounds situation are possibly the only examples in professional sport where the umpires need a physical skill that is not uniform amongst all umpires. For this reason alone, remove these requirements.

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by MH_Bomber » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:12 pm

  • VRS - get rid of it. The most annoying imposition into the game ever
  • Get rid of having tonominate ruckman. If we really don’t want 3rd man up then penalise the side that has 3rd man up
  • Interpret holding the ball like the 80s
  • Get the flock rid of 6 6 6
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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by grassy1 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:19 pm

Sack the AFL Executive!

That would be a good start!

How about it Federal Sports Minister?! :lol: :twisted:

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by nudder12 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:03 am

Windy_Hill wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:30 pm
So much grey area in the rules of or game. The constant tinkering means something is not right. Here is my take on the tweaks that need to be implemented to remove the subjectivity and uncertainty from the game. , I can appreciate many saying these are just more rule changes so what’s the point? The point is these changes should stand the test of time, remove contentious decisions and ensure a better game.

1. Touched Ball. Why is it just a point if the ball is touched of the boot yet passes clearly through the middle of the big sticks? It makes no sense when yo think about it. In my opinion removing this rule would remove the intrusion of many unnecessary goal reviews. It doesn’t matter if it has been touched, as long as the ball has been kicked (not rushed or punched across the line). A goal should also stand if it hits the post and passes through the goals. If the ball hits the post and ricochets back into play then play on.
Seems simple enough, but what if the ball goes through the goal off another part of an opposition player? And will we just start having arguments about whether it was "touched" or "rushed/punched"?
Hitting the post......just the goal post? What if it hits the point post?


2. Deliberate Out of Bounds. This is a stupid and inconsistently applied rule yet the intentions are good. Let’s take out the subjectivity and guess work by simply awarding a kick to the opposition any time the ball goes out of bounds. The only proviso should be that if this happens in either forward 50, the team with the ball cannot take a direct shot at goal and must kick the ball into play first. If the ball for some reason bounces at right angles and goes through the posts, then it will be no score with a kick out to the defending team being awarded. Implementing this rule will ensure a faster and more open game with less throw in congestion.
I think you're making it even more complicated with the bit about inside 50. And I don't like the idea of "last touch" because players will deliberately knock it into an opponent so it ricochets OOB. How about just remove the deliberate rule altogether?

3. Holding the ball. This rule has remained subjective for ever it seems so it’s time to remove the subjectivity. A player who takes possession of the ball will be deemed Holding the Ball if he is tackled by an opponent after having had prior opportunity to dispose of the ball by hand or foot or disposed of the ball illegally. So let’s break this down. Prior opportunity should mean that the player has had a reasonable chance to with kick or handball before the tackle. That essentially mean he has about 1 to 2 seconds to release the ball before a tackle is laid. An instant tackle where there is no reasonable prior opportunity will result in a ball up. The exception to this is if the player goes to ground to take possession, dives on a loose ball, or while prone on the ground, takes possession of the ball. In these cases, regardless of prior opportunity the player has illegally taken possession of the ball and will be immediately penalized. This basically means if you do any of the above, you are can only knock the ball off the ground, never take possession. If you have had prior opportunity and are tackled forcing the ball to be knocked out in the process of the tackle, that is an immediate Holding the Ball. None of this rubbish you see when the umpire says the ball was knocked out during the tackle. The tackler should be rewarded either way. So I suppose the biggest change here is simply prohibiting any player going to ground to take possession. This is the same rule as used in Gaelic Football. I feel you go to ground and reach out to grab the ball you will be penalized if tackled....You must knock the ball away.
Sounds just like it is now - except players should have a bit longer to dispose of the ball, as you've suggested

4. 15m Kicks. Another strange traditional rule that must be incorrectly adjudicated 20 times a game. It also relies on the umpire have some sort of in built GPS to track ball distance. This is plain amateur hour. Just make it simple. Any kick that is marked on the full, regardless of distance is a fair mark. Any handball is play on.
Sorry, don't like it. I can imagine teams setting up chains of players 1m apart. Umps will still need a GPS to rule on "running too far" so it doesn't get rid of that problem. If anything, I'd like to see it extended to 20m.

5. Centre Bounce....just get rid of it. A classic example was Bellchambers giving up a free kick, unfairly penalized, in the game against GWS because the umpire couldn’t bounce the ball straight up. The result was Bellchambers was forced to hold his ground to be at the fall of the ball and was interpreted to have “blocked” his opponent. It’s amateurish to see the umpires consistently bouncing the ball incorrectly with the game being stopped for a second “ball up”. They don’t even reset the damn clock. Those few seconds lost every game will one day cost a team a grand final. Make the game fair and simple toss the ball straight up so both ruckman have a fair and equal chance to compete. If it’s good enough for the NBA, it’s good enough for us.
Yeah, OK. I'm a traditionalist and love the bounce. But we've removed it from around the ground situations already, and it's annoying when it has to be recalled, so get rid of it and throw it up. Should we just throw it up instead of boundary throw-ins too? Maybe 15m in from the boundary?
PS - the free was against McKernan not TBC :wink:

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by nudder12 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:06 am

MH_Bomber wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:12 pm
  • VRS - get rid of it. The most annoying imposition into the game ever
Agreed. We have more fuss using it than we did before we had it.
  • Get rid of having to nominate ruckman. If we really don’t want 3rd man up then penalise the side that has 3rd man up
Absolutely. Though it seems so obvious, so maybe there's a good reason why your suggestion isn't viable.....?

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by grassy1 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:18 am

Just one Bounce necessary per Game and ya just gotta have BOUNCEDOWN!

Even if the Ump stuffs up the Big moment! :roll:

After that,ball ups for the rest of the game!

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by s'dreams » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:51 am

MH_Bomber wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:12 pm
  • VRS - get rid of it. The most annoying imposition into the game ever
Agreed. We have more fuss using it than we did before we had it.
  • Get rid of having to nominate ruckman. If we really don’t want 3rd man up then penalise the side that has 3rd man up
Absolutely. Though it seems so obvious, so maybe there's a good reason why your suggestion isn't viable.....?
[/quote]

Disagree about VRS. It was introduced to eliminate HOWLERS ... ie egregious or unfortunate mistakes arising from the goals umpire being blindsided or just dumb mistaken.

If it takes longer than 20 seconds to work out whether a decision is right or wrong ... IT IS NOT A HOWLER

The VRS should not be used to try to achieve perfection ... but to the dumb idiots in the media and the AFL - they are acting like it is.

For f**** sake - laser speed cameras have a tolerance of +/- 3% (despite it being more accurate than that). Umpires don't get every call right on whether a mark was taken let alone whether the ball went for 15m. Why the hell is everyone going for sub-millimeter perfection on a goal call when the parallax errors in the (2d) cameras cannot tell properly if the whole of the ball has crossed the (rather thick) goal line.

Make it simple. Keep it simple. 20 seconds max and either a CLEAR decision or "I CANT TELL".

And let the whingers who demand a higher level of accuracy pay for everything with exact change for a week.
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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by MH_Bomber » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:02 am

S'Dreams,

Can you please name the egregiously wrong goal umpiring decisions that occurred BEFORE VRS?.

I can name at the most two and even they are very dubious. Those being the Libba goal/point in prelim final in against Adelaide in 1997 and Rocca point/goal in 2002

All the howlers have happened as a result of VRS.

So we bring in a system that holds up the game, annoys fans and gets it just plain wrong.

GET RID OF IT
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MH_Bomber

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by BenDoolan » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:28 am

Windy_Hill wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:30 pm
So much grey area in the rules of or game. The constant tinkering means something is not right. Here is my take on the tweaks that need to be implemented to remove the subjectivity and uncertainty from the game. , I can appreciate many saying these are just more rule changes so what’s the point? The point is these changes should stand the test of time, remove contentious decisions and ensure a better game.

1. Touched Ball. Why is it just a point if the ball is touched of the boot yet passes clearly through the middle of the big sticks? It makes no sense when yo think about it. In my opinion removing this rule would remove the intrusion of many unnecessary goal reviews. It doesn’t matter if it has been touched, as long as the ball has been kicked (not rushed or punched across the line). A goal should also stand if it hits the post and passes through the goals. If the ball hits the post and ricochets back into play then play on.
Yeah, nah thanks. It ain’t soccer. No reason to change that rule whatsoever. Players have 6.4 metres of space in which to kick the ball through. Just do it.

Touched ball - Why shouldn’t a player be rewarded for a smother or spoil attempt? FFS, Dustin Fletcher made it into an art form and made a brilliant career out of it.

Get the technology right, and use it properly. Cricket always checks for a no-ball every wicket. This is no different. All they need is better cameras and their job will be easier.
2. Deliberate Out of Bounds. This is a stupid and inconsistently applied rule yet the intentions are good. Let’s take out the subjectivity and guess work by simply awarding a kick to the opposition any time the ball goes out of bounds. The only proviso should be that if this happens in either forward 50, the team with the ball cannot take a direct shot at goal and must kick the ball into play first. If the ball for some reason bounces at right angles and goes through the posts, then it will be no score with a kick out to the defending team being awarded. Implementing this rule will ensure a faster and more open game with less throw in congestion.
Yeah, nah thanks. So again, someone smothers a kick and the ball goes out of bounds, and you penalise the smotherer?

You need to re-think that one.
3. Holding the ball. This rule has remained subjective for ever it seems so it’s time to remove the subjectivity. A player who takes possession of the ball will be deemed Holding the Ball if he is tackled by an opponent after having had prior opportunity to dispose of the ball by hand or foot or disposed of the ball illegally. So let’s break this down. Prior opportunity should mean that the player has had a reasonable chance to with kick or handball before the tackle. That essentially mean he has about 1 to 2 seconds to release the ball before a tackle is laid. An instant tackle where there is no reasonable prior opportunity will result in a ball up. The exception to this is if the player goes to ground to take possession, dives on a loose ball, or while prone on the ground, takes possession of the ball. In these cases, regardless of prior opportunity the player has illegally taken possession of the ball and will be immediately penalized. This basically means if you do any of the above, you are can only knock the ball off the ground, never take possession. If you have had prior opportunity and are tackled forcing the ball to be knocked out in the process of the tackle, that is an immediate Holding the Ball. None of this rubbish you see when the umpire says the ball was knocked out during the tackle. The tackler should be rewarded either way. So I suppose the biggest change here is simply prohibiting any player going to ground to take possession. This is the same rule as used in Gaelic Football. I feel you go to ground and reach out to grab the ball you will be penalized if tackled....You must knock the ball away.
This rule was ok before they changed it to the current bullshit. Just go back to that.
4. 15m Kicks. Another strange traditional rule that must be incorrectly adjudicated 20 times a game. It also relies on the umpire have some sort of in built GPS to track ball distance. This is plain amateur hour. Just make it simple. Any kick that is marked on the full, regardless of distance is a fair mark. Any handball is play on.
I don’t think it’s that badly adjudicated. You get the occasional groan. If you’re going to worry about ‘distance’ carried, then are you also suggesting getting rid of the required bounce every 10 metres?
5. Centre Bounce....just get rid of it. A classic example was Bellchambers giving up a free kick, unfairly penalized, in the game against GWS because the umpire couldn’t bounce the ball straight up. The result was Bellchambers was forced to hold his ground to be at the fall of the ball and was interpreted to have “blocked” his opponent. It’s amateurish to see the umpires consistently bouncing the ball incorrectly with the game being stopped for a second “ball up”. They don’t even reset the damn clock. Those few seconds lost every game will one day cost a team a grand final. Make the game fair and simple toss the ball straight up so both ruckman have a fair and equal chance to compete. If it’s good enough for the NBA, it’s good enough for us.
There should be a retractable rocket launcher in the centre of the ground. Problem solved.
Unfortunately, you can't drown a witch!

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by s'dreams » Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:56 pm

MH_Bomber wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:02 am
S'Dreams,

Can you please name the egregiously wrong goal umpiring decisions that occurred BEFORE VRS?.

I can name at the most two and even they are very dubious. Those being the Libba goal/point in prelim final in against Adelaide in 1997 and Rocca point/goal in 2002

All the howlers have happened as a result of VRS.

So we bring in a system that holds up the game, annoys fans and gets it just plain wrong.

GET RID OF IT
Gieschen (remember that bozo?) and the AFL panicked in 2011 when Wellingham's GF goal clearly hit the post, but was awarded the goal. It didn't matter given the pies 38 point loss to Geelong... but in the way of both pies fans and the media when there is little else to cover after the event ... a lot of "what if" questions were asked (including a couple of articles from fatpick) about the scenario where .

Everyone remembered the 2009 GF where Hawkin's "goal" in the second quarter clearly touched the post but was awarded a goal ... which would have raised even more questions if a goal hadn't been kicked after the siren... especially given the goal given for abusing the goal umpire when the cats thought they had touched the ball.

And of course concern about gambling payouts never crossed their minds.

So the AFL brought in a trial in 2012 specifically to look at Questionable goal decisions specifically "Did the ball cross the line? Was it touched at ground level? Did the ball skim the post?". Reviews were also limited to a maximum of 40 seconds. Somehow (with Gieschan being a media slut) this quickly turned into touched in the air and more importantly situations where the technology replaces the goal umpire making a call at all.

I have no problem with judicious use of VRT, but if there is doubt from the VRT, then let the decision stand.
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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by F111 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:06 pm

s'dreams wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 12:56 pm
I have no problem with judicious use of VRT, but if there is doubt from the VRT, then let the decision stand.
Doubt in one persons eyes can be clear and obvious from someone elses pov. Crap replay resolution doesn't help.

Therein lies the problem.

The multitude of camera positions required to adequately cover all possibilities, on the line, in the play, in the air etc along with fuzzy replays makes the cost to implement any best practice system at every single ground they play on too much of a disincentive for the AFL. They have the money, but the complexity of uniformity across every venue must be a nightmare.

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by MH_Bomber » Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:47 pm

This Mckernan "non Goal" - the vision is simply not clear.

I would like to know how his finger isnt broken the way most carried on about it and the ball didnt slow completely down and change direction.

In the meanwhile get rid of it until the technology is up to it with following:
  • super hi resolution
  • slow motion
  • 3D to determine depth
  • 20 camera angles
  • infrared
  • snicko
  • ball tracking technology
Oh hang on once they analysed all that for the first decision the game would be over.
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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by grassy1 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:55 pm

Or,the AWFULL finds yet another excuse to change the game.

Like 15 Minute Quarters? :-"

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by Windy_Hill » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:04 pm

Ben, the reward for a good smother is the ball fails to reach its intended target. A fingertip that results in no discernible affect and spectacular mark up the line should not be.

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by BenDoolan » Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:19 pm

Windy_Hill wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:04 pm
Ben, the reward for a good smother is the ball fails to reach its intended target. A fingertip that results in no discernible affect and spectacular mark up the line should not be.
It’s a game of inches. A fingertip is fine by me. Good efforts must be rewarded not ignored.

Don’t know why you want to change the rules on this. A touched ball is a touched ball. There are no degrees of ‘touchness’. How on earth is an umpire supposed to determine whether a finger tipped touched ball has no deviation or not?
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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by grassy1 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 6:09 pm

Yep,I’m a purist as well.

If it’s touched or knicks or hits the post,the kick should be registered as a behind.

Please don’t encourage those Halfwits at AWFULL House or AWFULL Rules Committee! #-o :roll: :-&

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by Windy_Hill » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:28 pm

BenDoolan wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:19 pm
Windy_Hill wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:04 pm
Ben, the reward for a good smother is the ball fails to reach its intended target. A fingertip that results in no discernible affect and spectacular mark up the line should not be.
It’s a game of inches. A fingertip is fine by me. Good efforts must be rewarded not ignored.

Don’t know why you want to change the rules on this. A touched ball is a touched ball. There are no degrees of ‘touchness’. How on earth is an umpire supposed to determine whether a finger tipped touched ball has no deviation or not?
This is exactly my point...they dont know. I think we are programmed to simply accept the touched ball rule because that's how we have been hard wired over decades. But, why not question it? Its not an issue in other sports, admittedly they are all play on sports (NFL, Rugby etc). Dont get me wrong, I am not suggesting wholesale changes for the simple sake of change. But there are many aspects of our game that are objectively speaking, disingenuous.

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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by MH_Bomber » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:12 am

My question is, if this touched ball thing os so needing to be adjudicated within an in of it's like, why does it apply to a touch on that where the mark is taken? How many times have we seen marks paid where there have been multiple touches on it or more commonly a "team" mark. Why is that area of the game so clearly left to the commonsense adjudication of who principally controlled it but the complete reverse when the touch is near the source of the kick.
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Re: Fix the Rules Once and For All

Post by BenDoolan » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:22 am

MH_Bomber wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:12 am
My question is, if this touched ball thing os so needing to be adjudicated within an in of it's like, why does it apply to a touch on that where the mark is taken? How many times have we seen marks paid where there have been multiple touches on it or more commonly a "team" mark. Why is that area of the game so clearly left to the commonsense adjudication of who principally controlled it but the complete reverse when the touch is near the source of the kick.
They will pay touched “play on” in a marking contest if it is clear to the umpire that it was touched. They are not going to refer to the TV umpire every time this happens.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to check to see if every goal is clear in footy. They have the time to do so, much the same as they check every wicket in cricket. They just need to get the imaging right.

I’m sure everyone here would be screaming in the other direction had GWS benefitted from a touched goal off the boot.

So, my question is, we’re in a GF and we are 5 points up with seconds to go...Paddy Cripps is running into the F50 and kicks it as Adam Saad desperately tries to smother it. Ball sails through for a goal. They think they’ve won the game as the siren sounds. TV umpire checks the super camera and it shows Saad getting a finger on the ball.

What’s your decision?
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