There has been a lot of contention over the years that Essendon has underachieved and should have won more flags under Sheedy. What do people on this site think? Should he have had more than four by now? If so what years should the other flags have been?
Whilst I acknowledge that the system has been designed to supposedly prevent clubs dominating for extended periods of time with the draft, salary cap etc I reckon Sheedy could possibly have won 2 more flags.
The ones that I reckon got away were:
1986 - although there was a rotten run with injury with Timmy, Vander and Daisy Williams missing large chunks of the season through injury and the departure of guys such as Neagle, Weston and Wood the club still lost the elimination final by only a point. It was a contentious loss as well with umpire Cameron disallowing a goal by Steven Clark because he allegedy ran too far.
Also, Essendon beat the eventual premier Hawthorn by 37 points and the eventual runner-up Carlton by a similar margin in the run home. Also, the fabric of the club was upset by the trading of Carey and Bradbury and was not the same for a while afterwards. They got Raines and Richardson out of that swap both of whom ended up at the Bears next year anyway.
1999/2001 - There should have been at least one more flag out of this playing group. The one that stands out is 1999, topping the ladder with 18 wins and 4 losses after the home and away season were unbackable favourites but bowed out to Carlton by 1 point in the preliminary final.
Note: I havent included 1989/1990 in here because I reckon (and Sheedy himself has said) had the club won flags in either of those years they probably would not have won in 1993.
How many flags should Sheedy have won?
-
Windy_Hill
- Champion of Essendon
- Posts: 12859
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:23 pm
I think the basic premise of your question is all wrong.
Its not how many premierships should Sheedy have won. Its how many more should the club have won.
1999, 1996, 1990 and to a degree 2001 cannot be blamed on Sheedy.
one point losses in 96 & 99 can only be put down to the players not doing the job (especially in 99)
1990 and 2001 got us because injuries and other issues conspired to ruin our run for the flag.
What I can say is Sheedy definitely got us the 1993 and 1984 flags with supreme coaching input.
Its not how many premierships should Sheedy have won. Its how many more should the club have won.
1999, 1996, 1990 and to a degree 2001 cannot be blamed on Sheedy.
one point losses in 96 & 99 can only be put down to the players not doing the job (especially in 99)
1990 and 2001 got us because injuries and other issues conspired to ruin our run for the flag.
What I can say is Sheedy definitely got us the 1993 and 1984 flags with supreme coaching input.
-
rama_fan
- Champion of Essendon
- Posts: 11383
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:17 pm
- Location: World's Most Liveable City
2001 Brisbane were the better side.
You can blame Sheedy for playing Mercuri I think, we did run out of legs that game and Hird and Mercuri were next to useless. You can't blame him for playing Hird, but Mercuri might not have been such a good option.
1996 we probably lose to North in the GF, 1999 we were stiff and the players didnt perform in the last quarter, we were inaccurate and Dean Wallis had a massive brain fade, Mercs misses an easy shot at goal and Cara kicked about 33 points. Can't blame Sheedy there.
You can blame Sheedy for playing Mercuri I think, we did run out of legs that game and Hird and Mercuri were next to useless. You can't blame him for playing Hird, but Mercuri might not have been such a good option.
1996 we probably lose to North in the GF, 1999 we were stiff and the players didnt perform in the last quarter, we were inaccurate and Dean Wallis had a massive brain fade, Mercs misses an easy shot at goal and Cara kicked about 33 points. Can't blame Sheedy there.
You can't?rama_fan wrote: You can't blame him for playing Hird, but Mercuri might not have been such a good option.
Just like Mercuri, Hird was on one leg as well and as useless, hell he lowered his clours to Brad Scott.
In the last quarter when Sheedy finally realised that they were useless and had them both sitting on the bench, the look I saw on Hird's face told me that he knew he shouldn't be there, and that he was only there because he and the coach hoped that he would be okay once the game got started and the adreliane started pumping.
Didn't work and it was never likely to. It was a move that said to me that Sheeds and the coaching staff knew that by that stage Brisbane was the superior team and they needed to take a big time gamble.
Last edited by ealesy on Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What about somerville?rama_fan wrote:2001 Brisbane were the better side.
You can blame Sheedy for playing Mercuri I think, we did run out of legs that game and Hird and Mercuri were next to useless. You can't blame him for playing Hird, but Mercuri might not have been such a good option.
1996 we probably lose to North in the GF, 1999 we were stiff and the players didnt perform in the last quarter, we were inaccurate and Dean Wallis had a massive brain fade, Mercs misses an easy shot at goal and Cara kicked about 33 points. Can't blame Sheedy there.
He was pathetic in that match, should have been shot after that game, not just delisted.
He kicks on the left
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
rama_fan: Dean Wallis had a career full of brain fades...only reason he was on the list in 1999 was Sheedy.
Therefore, one could argue that Sheedy was partly to blame for Wallis' brain fade in the dying seconds in the 2001 Granny.
And I would also like to say I don't think Mercs' shot was an easy shot on goal, it was a quick snap from around 45m out under pressure.
Also in 1999 we were a far superior team to Carlton, the result of the 99 prelim final tells me that the players were already looking a week ahead. They took their opponent lightly, weren't focus on the job at hand and were complacent. Throughout that game it looked like we were coasting and simply assumed that we would hit another gear and burn the Blues off. Never happened and Sheedy has got to take some o the blame for not getting the player's heads right in the lead up to the game.
John Elliot set the tone for the game the week before and we all knew that the Blues would be breathing fire and wouldn't be giving an inch, yet the players turned up and played in such a way that it seemed like they expected the Blues to eventaully roll over and give up.
Therefore, one could argue that Sheedy was partly to blame for Wallis' brain fade in the dying seconds in the 2001 Granny.
And I would also like to say I don't think Mercs' shot was an easy shot on goal, it was a quick snap from around 45m out under pressure.
Also in 1999 we were a far superior team to Carlton, the result of the 99 prelim final tells me that the players were already looking a week ahead. They took their opponent lightly, weren't focus on the job at hand and were complacent. Throughout that game it looked like we were coasting and simply assumed that we would hit another gear and burn the Blues off. Never happened and Sheedy has got to take some o the blame for not getting the player's heads right in the lead up to the game.
John Elliot set the tone for the game the week before and we all knew that the Blues would be breathing fire and wouldn't be giving an inch, yet the players turned up and played in such a way that it seemed like they expected the Blues to eventaully roll over and give up.
Last edited by ealesy on Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
More like 15 meters out.ealesy wrote:rama_fan: Dean Wallis had a career full of brain fades...only reason he was on the list in 1999 was Sheedy.
Therefore, one could argue that Sheedy was partly to blame for Wallis' brain fade in the dying seconds in the 2001 Granny.
And I would also like to say I don't think Mercs' shot was an easy shot on goal, it was a quick snap from around 45m out under pressure.
He kicks on the left
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
was it...I stand corrected, thought it was further out. But then the memory is fairly hazy...haven't watched the game again. Once was enough.Rossoneri wrote:More like 15 meters out.ealesy wrote:rama_fan: Dean Wallis had a career full of brain fades...only reason he was on the list in 1999 was Sheedy.
Therefore, one could argue that Sheedy was partly to blame for Wallis' brain fade in the dying seconds in the 2001 Granny.
And I would also like to say I don't think Mercs' shot was an easy shot on goal, it was a quick snap from around 45m out under pressure.
What...just that match??!!Rossoneri wrote:What about somerville?rama_fan wrote:2001 Brisbane were the better side.
You can blame Sheedy for playing Mercuri I think, we did run out of legs that game and Hird and Mercuri were next to useless. You can't blame him for playing Hird, but Mercuri might not have been such a good option.
1996 we probably lose to North in the GF, 1999 we were stiff and the players didnt perform in the last quarter, we were inaccurate and Dean Wallis had a massive brain fade, Mercs misses an easy shot at goal and Cara kicked about 33 points. Can't blame Sheedy there.
He was pathetic in that match, should have been shot after that game, not just delisted.
More like pretty much his entire career!!!
It boggles the mind that we traded Salmon away because he wanted to play ruck, when Simon Madden was nearing the end of his career, and the other ruckman around was Peter Somerville.
Another Sheedy favourite for mine.
Likewise, only seen the match once, live. That was it.
As for Somerville, couldnt agree more.
Was ok in 92 and 93, but from 95 onwards, he was shithouse. Yet in another of sheedys great moves, he shipped off salmon and kept somerville. At least we got something decent for Salmon, because Somerville was shit.
As for Somerville, couldnt agree more.
Was ok in 92 and 93, but from 95 onwards, he was shithouse. Yet in another of sheedys great moves, he shipped off salmon and kept somerville. At least we got something decent for Salmon, because Somerville was shit.
He kicks on the left
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
He kicks on the riiiiiiiiigggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt
That boy Hurley
Makes Riewoldt look shite!
-
billyduckworth
- Club Captain
- Posts: 3044
- Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:16 am
- Location: Adelaide
Good post, Crowny. It's a question I have often thought about. Let's not get bogged down in whether it was Sheedy's fault, or the players' fault, or John Elliot or whoever, let's just analyse the games:
1986 - I agree that injuries hurt us, but as you rightly point out, we beat both Carlton and Hawthorn fairly comfortably during the year. Our team then was such a great side it probably should have won 3 flags. I will never forget bloody Mick Conlon, who had done NOTHING all day kicking that goal right at the end.
1990 - I know the draw played against us but really we should have won this one too. I think it is almost univerally accepted now that Collingwood of that year were the worst team ever to win the flag. Have done nothing before or since. An absolute disgrace to lose to them.
1993 - this one came out of the blue, but then for such a young team at the time this side should have won at least one more: maybe 1996?
1999-2001 - for a side that completely dominated the game for 3 seasons to only win one flag is not good enough. 2001 is arguable - maybe we were already on the slide by then, but definitely 1999 should have been ours.
So I think that means 3 or 4 flags that got away from us. Not a great record really.
Whenever I think of this, my mind goes back to the end of the 1985 GF. We seemed invincible; Hawthorn looked GONE. Leigh Matthews carried off in tears. Yet Hawthorn went on to win FOUR OUT OF THE NEXT SIX flags. In that same six years, we won NONE. Clearly, they did a better job of rebuilding than we did!
1986 - I agree that injuries hurt us, but as you rightly point out, we beat both Carlton and Hawthorn fairly comfortably during the year. Our team then was such a great side it probably should have won 3 flags. I will never forget bloody Mick Conlon, who had done NOTHING all day kicking that goal right at the end.
1990 - I know the draw played against us but really we should have won this one too. I think it is almost univerally accepted now that Collingwood of that year were the worst team ever to win the flag. Have done nothing before or since. An absolute disgrace to lose to them.
1993 - this one came out of the blue, but then for such a young team at the time this side should have won at least one more: maybe 1996?
1999-2001 - for a side that completely dominated the game for 3 seasons to only win one flag is not good enough. 2001 is arguable - maybe we were already on the slide by then, but definitely 1999 should have been ours.
So I think that means 3 or 4 flags that got away from us. Not a great record really.
Whenever I think of this, my mind goes back to the end of the 1985 GF. We seemed invincible; Hawthorn looked GONE. Leigh Matthews carried off in tears. Yet Hawthorn went on to win FOUR OUT OF THE NEXT SIX flags. In that same six years, we won NONE. Clearly, they did a better job of rebuilding than we did!
For memory, Paul Salmon wanted to leave. He was shattered and gutted when a group of pathetic "Essendon" supporters booed him from the ground when he had a dirty day in the Qualifying Final WIN v West Coast at Waverley. They bronxed cheered him when he took a mark and payed out on him whenever he got near the ball.ealesy wrote:What...just that match??!!Rossoneri wrote:What about somerville?rama_fan wrote:2001 Brisbane were the better side.
You can blame Sheedy for playing Mercuri I think, we did run out of legs that game and Hird and Mercuri were next to useless. You can't blame him for playing Hird, but Mercuri might not have been such a good option.
1996 we probably lose to North in the GF, 1999 we were stiff and the players didnt perform in the last quarter, we were inaccurate and Dean Wallis had a massive brain fade, Mercs misses an easy shot at goal and Cara kicked about 33 points. Can't blame Sheedy there.
He was pathetic in that match, should have been shot after that game, not just delisted.
More like pretty much his entire career!!!
It boggles the mind that we traded Salmon away because he wanted to play ruck, when Simon Madden was nearing the end of his career, and the other ruckman around was Peter Somerville.
Another Sheedy favourite for mine.
I wasn't a real fan of Deano for a number of seasons, but 1999/2000 he was great value. I think it's harsh to blame the '99 loss on him after so many senior players missed sitters throughout the match. Caracella, Rioli, Long all missed soda's. To say that Wallis had a brain fade when he tried to run around Fraser Brown is one thing, but what do you call Matthew Lloyd for missing a goal from the top of the 10 metre square? No-one is willing to lay blame on Lloyd, but when you lose by a point, everyone should have a hard look at themselves in the part they played in the loss. Blame Wallis all you want, but he simply shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.
I don't blame Dean Wallis for the 99 Prelim final loss.
A quote from Basketball ring true for me for the 99 Prelim Final.
It's at the start of the movie when the Brewers have just lost the Dinslow Cup and they are interviewing Rimmer and ask him what went wrong, his response was:
"Well it was a team effort, and it took all of us pulling together to blow this one!!"
Dean Wallis was the scapegoat for so many Essendon supporters, because:
1. Many felt he deserved to be delisted along time ago
2. He f***** up the last play of the game and cost us a chance of winning or at least taking the game into extra-time.
3. He spurned open team-mates because he wanted a shot for glory himself.
4. He ran straight at one of the opposition teams best tacklers.
Stupid, idotic piece of play, but then alot of his team-mates committed exactly the same sin that day.
A quote from Basketball ring true for me for the 99 Prelim Final.
It's at the start of the movie when the Brewers have just lost the Dinslow Cup and they are interviewing Rimmer and ask him what went wrong, his response was:
"Well it was a team effort, and it took all of us pulling together to blow this one!!"
Dean Wallis was the scapegoat for so many Essendon supporters, because:
1. Many felt he deserved to be delisted along time ago
2. He f***** up the last play of the game and cost us a chance of winning or at least taking the game into extra-time.
3. He spurned open team-mates because he wanted a shot for glory himself.
4. He ran straight at one of the opposition teams best tacklers.
Stupid, idotic piece of play, but then alot of his team-mates committed exactly the same sin that day.
I knew Salmon wanted to leave, but I've always been under the belief that it was because he wanted to play ruck and was told that would not happen at Essendon.BenDoolan wrote:For memory, Paul Salmon wanted to leave. He was shattered and gutted when a group of pathetic "Essendon" supporters booed him from the ground when he had a dirty day in the Qualifying Final WIN v West Coast at Waverley. They bronxed cheered him when he took a mark and payed out on him whenever he got near the ball.ealesy wrote:What...just that match??!!Rossoneri wrote:What about somerville?rama_fan wrote:2001 Brisbane were the better side.
You can blame Sheedy for playing Mercuri I think, we did run out of legs that game and Hird and Mercuri were next to useless. You can't blame him for playing Hird, but Mercuri might not have been such a good option.
1996 we probably lose to North in the GF, 1999 we were stiff and the players didnt perform in the last quarter, we were inaccurate and Dean Wallis had a massive brain fade, Mercs misses an easy shot at goal and Cara kicked about 33 points. Can't blame Sheedy there.
He was pathetic in that match, should have been shot after that game, not just delisted.
More like pretty much his entire career!!!
It boggles the mind that we traded Salmon away because he wanted to play ruck, when Simon Madden was nearing the end of his career, and the other ruckman around was Peter Somerville.
Another Sheedy favourite for mine.
I'm sure his treatment from Essendon fans at the qualifying final made the decision easier, but I don't believe it was the underlying reason for his departure.
-
tonysoprano
- Club Captain
- Posts: 4639
- Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:31 pm
- Location: Perth
Well said ealesy - we didnt play great most of the match but were 17 points up half way through that last qtr and Carlton kicked the last 3 goals - in a winnable position and let it slip - that is everyones fault.ealesy wrote:I don't blame Dean Wallis for the 99 Prelim final loss.
A quote from Basketball ring true for me for the 99 Prelim Final.
It's at the start of the movie when the Brewers have just lost the Dinslow Cup and they are interviewing Rimmer and ask him what went wrong, his response was:
"Well it was a team effort, and it took all of us pulling together to blow this one!!"
Dean Wallis was the scapegoat for so many Essendon supporters, because:
1. Many felt he deserved to be delisted along time ago
2. He f***** up the last play of the game and cost us a chance of winning or at least taking the game into extra-time.
3. He spurned open team-mates because he wanted a shot for glory himself.
4. He ran straight at one of the opposition teams best tacklers.
Stupid, idotic piece of play, but then alot of his team-mates committed exactly the same sin that day.
-
CameronClayton
- High Draft Pick
- Posts: 652
- Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:42 am
Any of the experts out there ever wonder why Dean Wallis tried to take on Fraser Brown? Some of you say he was going for his own glory. Well in reality, when he grabbed the ball & looked up, all he saw was a WALL of Carlton players on our 50m arc.
He knew if he just banged it forward, it would have just come straight back. He couldn't hear or see Fletch because of the crowd noise. His only option was to take on Fraser Brown, (Sheedy later said it was pure bad luck, because he was the only bloke from the opposition that knew how to tackle), so that he could clear the ball over the wall of Carlton players.
So stop looking at Deano as the perennial scape goat in this game. Look at all those blokes that missed those sitters, Mercs especially.
Getting back to original topic, 5 instead of 4 - 1999 was the one that got away.
He knew if he just banged it forward, it would have just come straight back. He couldn't hear or see Fletch because of the crowd noise. His only option was to take on Fraser Brown, (Sheedy later said it was pure bad luck, because he was the only bloke from the opposition that knew how to tackle), so that he could clear the ball over the wall of Carlton players.
So stop looking at Deano as the perennial scape goat in this game. Look at all those blokes that missed those sitters, Mercs especially.
Getting back to original topic, 5 instead of 4 - 1999 was the one that got away.
1999 definately was the one that got away for sure, dominated the comp and it was without Hird (for most of the year) and Lucas. Still shudder thinking that a team who lost 11 games for the year knocked us off in the PF! I don't blame Wallis, he made a crucial mistake yes, but it was our terrible wasting of opportunities in front of goal when we were dominating, and in general we were very flat as a team pretty much for 3 qtrs of the match, that cost us.
1996 if we had happened to beat Sydney in the preliminary final, the injuries sustained in that game, Lloyd, Bewick being a couple that springs to mind, the following week vs. North would've been a very tough match. In a two horse race anything is possible, a win would've been a super effort.
2001, the runs were on the board with a truck load of injured key players and them filtering back come finals time left us with a team of underdone boys, where Brisbane were really at their peak. The team that carried us did such a splendid job to get us where we finished but I think we were beaten by a team that was "ready' to take all before it.
1990 we played so well all year and I felt we started to taper off late in the year where Collingwood were playing better and better "as a team". The draw vs. West Coast did not help our cause and really during that finals campaign we were not overly convincing where as Collingwood smashed us in the semi that took them straight to the GF. We started that GF very well kicking the first two but I think after the fight and Collingwood 4 or 5 50 mtr penalties they got in the second quarter (for not much at all) took any momentum we had away. Maggotts!
1989 if we'd got past Geelong in the preliminary final we were a real shot at that flag, bugger, it wasn't meant to be though.
1996 if we had happened to beat Sydney in the preliminary final, the injuries sustained in that game, Lloyd, Bewick being a couple that springs to mind, the following week vs. North would've been a very tough match. In a two horse race anything is possible, a win would've been a super effort.
2001, the runs were on the board with a truck load of injured key players and them filtering back come finals time left us with a team of underdone boys, where Brisbane were really at their peak. The team that carried us did such a splendid job to get us where we finished but I think we were beaten by a team that was "ready' to take all before it.
1990 we played so well all year and I felt we started to taper off late in the year where Collingwood were playing better and better "as a team". The draw vs. West Coast did not help our cause and really during that finals campaign we were not overly convincing where as Collingwood smashed us in the semi that took them straight to the GF. We started that GF very well kicking the first two but I think after the fight and Collingwood 4 or 5 50 mtr penalties they got in the second quarter (for not much at all) took any momentum we had away. Maggotts!
1989 if we'd got past Geelong in the preliminary final we were a real shot at that flag, bugger, it wasn't meant to be though.