Why we can't win a Premiership with this group of players

[hillchaser]

Been thinking about this a lot lately and if I'm honest with myself we don't look like have a team to win a premiership with this group. Now before all you guys who normally sit back and never go out on a limb begin crucify me. Just bear with me for a few minutes.

First: My observation of the recent grant final winners over the last 10 years is that they all had very good midfields with strong bodied players. The only exception here might be Sydney.

Second: These premiership midfielders have the ability to apply a high level of defensive pressure at clearances and through the middle of the ground. The have the ability to slow a game down and pressure a team when things start getting away from them. The only exception to this rule is Essendon in 2000. Check out the stats ... our midfield barely broke even in most games ... but we had such outstanding defenders, wingers and forwards that we would rebound very quickly from defence most times. Think about Brisbane, Port, West Coast, Hawthorn and Geelong... all very strong midfielders that could dominate stoppages and apply defensive pressure. West Coast and Geelong have only average forward lines but were so dominant through the midfield that they would win anyway.

Third: Good teams have at least 2 (mostly more) top class midfielders so that if one gets tagged out of the game the others fill the void.

Fourth: On average good midfields have at least one player capable of kicking goals from the midfield (not while resting in the forward pocket). Think Kerr, Cousins, Judd, Voss, Black, Power, Notting, Osbourne, Mitchell, Sewell, Burgoyne1, Burgoyne2, Ablett, Selwood, Bartell and Chapman (When he is playing in the midfield)

Now let's look at our current midfield.

McVeigh
Watson
Welsh
Winderlich
Lonergan
Hocking
Houli
Stanton
Dyson
Prismall

How many of these guys would get a game for a premiership team from the past 10 years. We have one champion in Watson, a second tier in Stanton, McVeigh, Winderlich, Prismall and maybe Welsh if he is fit. At this point in time opponents need only stop Watson and we start struggling in the midfield.

Defensively a midfield of Dyson, Houli, Winderlich, Stanton and Lonergan, Hocking and Watson are incapable of putting a lot of defensive pressure on teams. They are either too lean to apply physical pressure or to slow. Welsh and McVeigh are both exceptions here and but due to injuries, form and age we had nothing out of them last year and if things continue of the same trajectory, which if you were a betting man you would assume, we are in trouble again.

When the momentum of the game shifts and a team starts tagging Watson out of the game which of these players are capable of digging in and turning things around. Once again Welsh and McVeigh are both capable but based on very recent history do not look likely to be able to stop the momentum of an opposing team.

Now we come to the offensive side of our midfield. I was going to get into a big discuss but as I have suggested above .. very good teams kick goals from the midfield. How many goals, last year, did we get from these midfielders playing the in midfield ? Case closed.

In thinking about this issue I keep coming back to the point that Filthy raises in his last post.. about our physical preparation compared to other teams. This is the part the worries me most. My biggest problem is capability...by that i mean that no matter how hard they train Watson, Welsh, Lonergan, Hocking and Prismall are never going to be really fast and conversely no matter how much weight they lift Dyson, Stanton, Winderlich, Lonergan and Houli will never be able to match it with the likes of Chapman, Voss, Ablett, Bartell etc. My point being that we do not have a complete player that is both strong, fast and skilful. All the very best teams have a least one in the midfield.

Furthermore no matter what training we do these players with the possible exception of Houli do not have the capacity really change body type. We are drafting the wrong type of player types into our midfield. Lightly built speedsters with small frames that are fine in junior footy but struggle in the AFL. Look at the boys currently in Adelaide, Westcoast, Brisbane, Geelong and hawthorn. They just don't draft this type of player.

I hope I'm wrong but this is the reason I think we will struggle to get the very top level. Fingers crossed Melksham becomes a star but I'm not one of these people who is going to waste my time dreaming about Gumby or Melksham till they are actually out there playing week in, week out.

[swoodley]

Geelong played in a prelim against Sydney back in 2005? and yet it took them another couple of years to actually win a flag.

Back in 2005, they were a big bodied team with a developing midfield.

There is no reason that we cannot improve to the point of winning a flag in the next 2-3 years as we already have the makings of a quality spine and a lot of foot soldiers for the midfield. ALL of our players will be bigger, stronger and more experienced and importantly, we should have a lot of players in that 100+ game area that is the hallmark of so many top teams.

Football constantly evolves and Knights might be the coach the takes football to another place.

Geelong play a vastly different game to that of Sydney and West Coast and Hawthorn played another brand to win their flag.

Speed is the current trend but that doesn't mean it will continue to be if another club comes up with a plan that counters it.

So enough pessimism and stand by for cup number 17

[Crazyman]

So enough pessimism and stand by for cup number 17

This 10000000% and definately before the SCUM get anywhere near close now that Plebola has gone to Brisvegas...

[Jazz_84]

i know it was a praccy match and against Melbourne but a good spread of goal kickers today with everyone "sharing the load" as the headline says, something we've all be hoping would happen eventually, takes time for a new coach to mould his team, lets hope this is the beginning of something of a consistent playing group

[little_ripper]

I'm a big fan of the knights game plan.

breathtakingly fast movement straight through the corridor.

who says this footy cannot win a flag.

[j-mac31]

I'm a big fan of the knights game plan.

breathtakingly fast movement straight through the corridor.

who says this footy cannot win a flag.

Not me as such. However the defensive side of our game must continue to improve.

Also losing Lovett will hurt the game plan, unless other players step up.

[Windy_Hill]

I'm a big fan of the knights game plan.

breathtakingly fast movement straight through the corridor.

who says this footy cannot win a flag.

Not me as such. However the defensive side of our game must continue to improve.

Also losing Lovett will hurt the game plan, unless other players step up.

Zaharakis, Houli, McVeigh, Welsh, Hille, Laycock, Hurley, Gumbleton - all players who had little impact in 2009 due to injury. I am sure they will adequately make up for the loss of Lovett

[boncer34]

I'm a big fan of the knights game plan.

breathtakingly fast movement straight through the corridor.

who says this footy cannot win a flag.

Not me as such. However the defensive side of our game must continue to improve.

Also losing Lovett will hurt the game plan, unless other players step up.

Zaharakis, Houli, McVeigh, Welsh, Hille, Laycock, Hurley, Gumbleton - all players who had little impact in 2009 due to injury. I am sure they will adequately make up for the loss of Lovett

The other one Lloyd kicked 8 in his first game as captain in Round 1 and we looked like world beaters.

[Windy_Hill]

The other one Lloyd kicked 8 in his first game as captain in Round 1 and we looked like world beaters.

Tore his hammy off the bone 2 weeks later and all of a sudden - career never the same

[andrewb]

I believe that this team can make a preliminary final within two years if we can find players to fill the gaps:

B: McVeigh Pears Slattery
HB: Dempsey Hooker [1]
C: Winderlich Watson Stanton
HF: Monfries [3] [4]
F: Williams Hurley [5]
R: Ryder Prismall [6]
I: [7] Dyson [8] [9]

[1] - High hopes for Myers here, otherwise NLM, Houli, Tyson Slattery, Atkinson are potential candidates
[3] - Potentially Gumby at CHF, Hurley at FF OR Neagle / Still at FF with Hurley at CHF
[4 & 5] - Two of Davey, Jetta, Reimers, Carlisle, Melksham or Zaharakis need to step up
[6] - We really need a gun rover in the Akermanis / Cousins / Ablett mould. Pace, stamina, goal sense and excellent footskills. Of the current crop I think that Zaharakis is the most likely.
[7] - Either Hille (if he can get back from injury) or Laycock, T-Bell / Bock at a stretch.
[8] [9] - Need a tagger (Welsh, Hocking? My personal feel is that Houli could be turned into an exceptional tagger with his fitness base and pace) and a mobile big; and an extra mid of James Kelly quality.

Depth I think we have covered if we can have a reasonable run with the injury gods. I'm comfortable that we'll be highly competitive with the following team in two years (Fletch for Slattery if he's still alive):

B: McVeigh Pears Slattery
HB: Dempsey Hooker Myers
C: Winderlich Watson Stanton
HF: Monfries Gumbleton Reimers
F: Williams Hurley Jetta
R: Ryder Prismall Zaharakis
I: Hille Dyson Houli Melksham

That's a very versatile team with good footskills and plenty of pace - 13 guys who can go through the middle, 4-5 tall forward options (Gumby, Hurley, Ryder, Hille, Hooker), 4 tall back options (Pears, Hooker, Hurley, Ryder), 4 ruck options (Ryder, Hille, Hooker, Gumby).

[robrulz5]

I think Reimers is a real wildcard. Injury ruined his season last year but in 2008 he had a very good year. If he can get back to his 2008 form and begin to improve on that he'll be very dangerous on a wing and across half forward.

I believe Hurley needs to be played forward. He has the imposing figure that not many kids his age have. Goals win games and if he plays forward he'll kick plenty.

[s'dreams]

Depth I think we have covered if we can have a reasonable run with the injury gods. I'm comfortable that we'll be highly competitive with the following team in two years (Fletch for Slattery if he's still alive):

B: McVeigh Pears Slattery
HB: Dempsey Hooker Myers
C: Winderlich Watson Stanton
HF: Monfries Gumbleton Reimers
F: Williams Hurley Jetta
R: Ryder Prismall Zaharakis
I: Hille Dyson Houli Melksham

That's a very versatile team with good footskills and plenty of pace - 13 guys who can go through the middle, 4-5 tall forward options (Gumby, Hurley, Ryder, Hille, Hooker), 4 tall back options (Pears, Hooker, Hurley, Ryder), 4 ruck options (Ryder, Hille, Hooker, Gumby).

Hmmmm ... assuming 2011 ... interesting no Welsh, Davey, Lonergran or NLM from the current starting 22. Also - would expect Atkinson/Quinn to develop and provide the pace you have identified and Still and Bock/TB to be making a push. Hurley at FF is a waste. More like CHB if Gumby shows his promise. Neagle/Daniher/Laycock to be FF. Stanton on wing... Naaa

I kinda expect that this year is the crap test - many players close to making it for a flag tilt or making Wall's A or B list have this year to stake their claims ... and I am happy that there are many players competing for the same positions. Competition and Darwinian selection rules...

Bring it on

Cheers - STI

[hillchaser]

We are going no where with a core midfield of Watson, dyson, stants, winderlich and prism.

None of these guys can break the lines and none of these guys can apply defensive pressure. Eom

[BenDoolan]

This is the same "going nowhere" midfield that smashed Geelong's midfield last week, is it not? The same Geelong midfield that some have ejaculated over in a few threads - Bartel, Ablett, Selwood, Corey, Enright etc.....correct?

Whilst we don't have the flashy Brownlow medal type running in amongst it, our midfield have fared extremely well on the clearance stakes in the last couple of years - the emerging Watson, Prismall, Stanton, Winderlich etc. Their delivery at times is a worry - but can improve.

As been pointed out already, Sydney had a cluster of serious plodders in the midfield who wore down the star studded West Coast combo of Judd, Cousins, Kerr & Embley. Sometimes the best midfields don't win you premierships if you don't have good book ends.

Our ruck combo has been down in the first 2 rounds (produced NO goals while resting up forward either), and our forward line had been super shithouse.

Don't see why the midfield (who have been serving us well for the last 2 years) is copping the blame for all our worries at the moment.

[danstar84]

This is the same "going nowhere" midfield that smashed Geelong's midfield last week, is it not? The same Geelong midfield that some have ejaculated over in a few threads - Bartel, Ablett, Selwood, Corey, Enright etc.....correct?

Whilst we don't have the flashy Brownlow medal type running in amongst it, our midfield have fared extremely well on the clearance stakes in the last couple of years - the emerging Watson, Prismall, Stanton, Winderlich etc. Their delivery at times is a worry - but can improve.

As been pointed out already, Sydney had a cluster of serious plodders in the midfield who wore down the star studded West Coast combo of Judd, Cousins, Kerr & Embley. Sometimes the best midfields don't win you premierships if you don't have good book ends.

Our ruck combo has been down in the first 2 rounds (produced NO goals while resting up forward either), and our forward line had been super shithouse.

Don't see why the midfield (who have been serving us well for the last 2 years) is copping the blame for all our worries at the moment.

This is basically the same bunch of core players that beat some good teams like the Hawks, Carlton, Collingwood and Saints last year. We did lose Lovett, and he is a fair loss, but we have other young players coming through who should be able to cover his spot.

They really need to look at the reasons behind the one week on, one week off type thing. Why can't we sustain skill level, not only within a game, but week to week. The skill level yesterday was abysmal, but last week, for most of the game it was fantastic.

[hillchaser]

BD: playing against geelong last week we were playing a team that wa very underdone. When they started going in hard we folded because we couldn't match it with them. They kicked 9 straight !

Also when it comes to the sydney team they were prwtty slow through the midfilef but they had the ability to lock the other team down with hard close pressure. We don't have this ability .

Don't be fooled. These are not skill errors. This is referred pressure because we are getting smoked in the midfield.

[robbie67]

I'm sorry, I have to laugh at the comparisons with Geelong. They were 4 weeks underdone compared to us, and when it really mattered they throttled us. Our record against Geelong is vomitous, and any comparisons between our mid-field and theirs is champaigne comedy. Our best mid-fielder would be their 5th best. Every player in our mid-field has some kind of deficiency.

[BenDoolan]

Who's comparing midfields? Simply saying that our midfield beat theirs on the day. Our f***'n useless forward line was the circus, not the midfield. If we had any dumb muppet taking marks and kicking goals against them, we would be lauding our team.

The truth is, NO ONE expects our midfield to win the contested ball against their rolls royces. The fact that we did, speaks volumes for their efforts. How is that getting "smoked" in the midfield? On the other hand, the dead shits in front of goal....

[Rossoneri]

There is little dash in our midfield at the moment. We have a solid base, but very little on the outside. It seems as though losing Lovett has killed us for pace (it shouldn't as it was only one player). The delivery is a worry, but so id the forward line structure. We seem to have forwards all over the place with no space for any of them to move.

I think this group of players is a decent enough list as it stands, we are missing the following:
skillful midfielders x 2 (with some pace, quicker than a Prismall for instance)
small defender x 1
small forward x 1
KF x 2

Oh, and some f****** consistency!!!!!!!!!!! One good game always followed by a bad game.

[little_ripper]

There is little dash in our midfield at the moment. We have a solid base, but very little on the outside. It seems as though losing Lovett has killed us for pace (it shouldn't as it was only one player). The delivery is a worry, but so id the forward line structure. We seem to have forwards all over the place with no space for any of them to move.

I think this group of players is a decent enough list as it stands, we are missing the following:
skillful midfielders x 2 (with some pace, quicker than a Prismall for instance)
small defender x 1
small forward x 1
KF x 2

Oh, and some f****** consistency!!!!!!!!!!! One good game always followed by a bad game.

Winderlich is quick. dysons got legs too....although i would just rather team of players who move the ball fast by hand and foot with skill.