The Official 2007 Election Thread

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Madden
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Post by Madden »

Filthy wrote:Strategically good move Stag???

What's happening Cup Day? The Reserve Bank is meeting already nervous about inflation. This announcement if ever implemented is uber inflationary and what is that going to do interest rates?

If Stevens wasn't sure about putting them up, he sure will now and how "savvy" will this Policy look then?

This is typical Rodent and gutless Smarmy......spend, spend your way out of trouble. Never mind we need money in education, health, broadband, infrastructure, climate change etc etc.....lets just fling it back at the tossers who know nothing about macro/micro economics and let them buy more plasma's etc and go further into hock than the nation already is.

Absolutely moronic and worse.....very dangerous.
I agree with your synopsis on the practicalities of the policy. But I still maintain its a good move (strategically - to get re-elected - because you have to remember that people are stupid).

I doubt that the RB will raise rates during a campaign.

At the moment the Libs are trailing by 18. I'll bet you they get a bounce from this announcement by the end of the week
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Post by Rossoneri »

The voting public has to be kidding themselves if they think that howard and Costello are going to implement that. How many tax cuts have they promised in 11 years?
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Post by jimmyc1985 »

Rossoneri wrote:The voting public has to be kidding themselves if they think that howard and Costello are going to implement that. How many tax cuts have they promised in 11 years?
They'll implement it for sure - the question is whether it's a good, bad or indifferent policy.

I can't ever recall any government, Federal or State, announcing a definite change in tax policy in the lead up to an election and then reneging on the change outlined. The closest example i can think of is Howard and the GST, where he was elected in 1996 on the promise to never, ever introduce GST, but subsequently changed his mind, but even then he was re-elected in the 1998 election campaign after he had changed his mind, so effectively people voted for a GST in 1998 anyway.
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Post by BERT »

The 1998 election was only about the GST. He went to the election with that policy and won.

The Libs have come through on every tax cut they have promised.

Remember Paul Keatings L-A-W tax cuts?
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Post by MH_Bomber »

Well I am extremely confident Labor can get up. This is not only based on virtually every poll this year having their lead as substantial but also the preferred Prime Minister numbers and one of the best guides of all - Centrebet. The bookies have been an extremely accurate guide to the outcome of Australian elections over a number of years.

I reckons it smacks of desperation for them (the Coalition) to release the tax policy on day 1. Its going to be a very long campaign and these may well be lost in the noise of the last 2 weeks. They are trying to get a bounce. All the ALP has to do to counter this is say well why are you just doing this now there is an election. They have to have hammer them on the inflationary aspects that will force significant interest rate rises. I.e. What you might gain on a tax break will be be whitewashed by a tsumami of interest rate rises if the economy overheats. With the current indebtedness of most Australians with mortgages a lot of people could get wiped out if Howard overcooks the economy.

Its is time for this government to be voted out. The lies, the cover ups, the total lack of accuntability, the cowtowing to extreme Right wing American politics and the demise of the fair go in this country surely will conduce enough Australians to change their vote. Kevin Rudd does appear to have many redeeming qualities that appeal to voters. He aint no looney like Latham and wont spook the horses when the punters put their numbers on the voting slips.

ITS TIME BABY !!!!!!
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Post by BenDoolan »

MH_Bomber wrote:Well I am extremely confident Labor can get up. This is not only based on virtually every poll this year having their lead as substantial but also the preferred Prime Minister numbers and one of the best guides of all - Centrebet. The bookies have been an extremely accurate guide to the outcome of Australian elections over a number of years.

I reckons it smacks of desperation for them (the Coalition) to release the tax policy on day 1. Its going to be a very long campaign and these may well be lost in the noise of the last 2 weeks. They are trying to get a bounce. All the ALP has to do to counter this is say well why are you just doing this now there is an election. They have to have hammer them on the inflationary aspects that will force significant interest rate rises. I.e. What you might gain on a tax break will be be whitewashed by a tsumami of interest rate rises if the economy overheats. With the current indebtedness of most Australians with mortgages a lot of people could get wiped out if Howard overcooks the economy.

Its is time for this government to be voted out. The lies, the cover ups, the total lack of accuntability, the cowtowing to extreme Right wing American politics and the demise of the fair go in this country surely will conduce enough Australians to change their vote. Kevin Rudd does appear to have many redeeming qualities that appeal to voters. He aint no looney like Latham and wont spook the horses when the punters put their numbers on the voting slips.

ITS TIME BABY !!!!!!
Good post, and totally agree.
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Post by jimmyc1985 »

MH_Bomber wrote:...the total lack of accuntability...
I think the general consensus around here is that Howard has been very a-c***-able, if nothing else.
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Post by MH_Bomber »

:oops: :oops: :oops:

Was this some kind of freudian slip ? I mean accountability yes accountability.
Last edited by MH_Bomber on Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Madden »

MH_Bomber wrote: I reckons it smacks of desperation for them (the Coalition) to release the tax policy on day 1. Its going to be a very long campaign and these may well be lost in the noise of the last 2 weeks. They are trying to get a bounce. All the ALP has to do to counter this is say well why are you just doing this now there is an election. They have to have hammer them on the inflationary aspects that will force significant interest rate rises. I.e. What you might gain on a tax break will be be whitewashed by a tsumami of interest rate rises if the economy overheats. With the current indebtedness of most Australians with mortgages a lot of people could get wiped out if Howard overcooks the economy.
Agree with the general sentiment of your post (surely it is finally time!) but this bit is off the mark.

Sure, a lot of us can see the problems with tax cuts - but to the general public it doesn't matter.

The crux of your argument is that election campaigns are about proper debate. They aren't. They are about issues - it doesnt really matter what the result of the debate about the issue is - what matters is that the issue is being discussed.

Howard is getting slammed in the polls except on economic management, where is is in front as preferred economic manager. Therefore, if he makes the election about the economy, he has a better chance of winning. Simple. Sure, there might be legitimate arguments to be made against tax cuts, but the main upside for Howard is that people are talking about the economy - and not talking about Climate Change, Iraq, or the ALP Education Revolution.

That's what matters: convincing the public that YOUR issues are the most important. And far (it's only been two days I know) - this campaign has been about the economy. And that's good for Howard.
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Post by MH_Bomber »

I know where you are coming from Staggy but the old Howard tricks are viewed more cynically now.

I watched both Howard and Rudd on the 7.30 repoort tonight and once again thought Rudd was far more impressive than Mr cantankerous - Howard.
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Post by grassy1 »

The RIGHT Leadership?

Well we knew he was Leader,so long as his party shall need him.

We know he is RIGHT,....WING.

How far RIGHT does he intend to be.Or have been.

HARD RIGHT?

FAR RIGHT?

EXTREME RIGHT?

EXCLUSIVE BRETHREN RIGHT?

ULTRA NAZI RIGHT?
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Post by BenDoolan »

Staggy wrote: The first huge announcement of the campaign is in.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/federalel ... 58462.html

A major re-structure of the tax system to take place over 5 years.

In summary, this is what its gonna do:

The plan would see the tax-free threshold raised to $14,000 next year, while the lowest tax rate would kick in on earnings over $34,000. Taxpayers would pay 30 cents in the dollar once they earn $80,000 a year and 40 cents at $180,000.

In following years, the top tax rates would be lowered while the tax-free threshold would be lifted again.

Mr Costello has said the goal of the restructure was to arrive at a tax-free threshold of $20,000 and for there to be only four marginal tax rates, with the top rate set at 40 cents in the dollar. However the Treasurer has only outlined precise numbers for the first three years.
This is a very savvy move by the Liberals. In a sense, the details of the policy are largely irrelevant - because regardless of the detail, it focuses the early media attention on tax and the fact that Labor doesn't yet have a tax policy. This increased media scrutiny will result in one of two things:

1. Labor doesn't release a tax policy by the end of the week (when the debate is) - allowing Howard a free hit in the debate and beforehand, or;

2. Labor is hasty in releasing its tax policy as soon as possible - allowing Costello to pick it apart with ease (say what you like about Costello, but he is supremely good at attacking fiscal policy).

Very good first move by Howard.
That's yet to be seen. It appears to me that they are "banking" their entire campaign around their "economic management" theme, and using money to woo voters. What the ALP need to do is attack the Government for having such a surplus and not doing anything with it. What is it with this Government that can tax the public to the extent of having such a surplus, only to hang on to it and not spend it on areas such as hospitals, education, road and other infrastructure? What about young families and child care facilities? In essence, it's like a family who buys a huge mansion because they earn a glorious income, but over the years all they do is allow their bank balance to fatten up. The mansion starts to fall apart, it requires renovation and the garden is overgrown, the kids don't get a good education, the kids are constantly sick and their teeth are falling out. "Hey but look at my bank balance!!!"

Governments are meant to collect taxes and spend it on areas that the general population can benefit. What has the Howard Government done in 11 years to improve the standard of living in this country? Please tell me there is something else other than lower interest rates.
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Post by pevfan »

And still 1 in 10 Australians living below the poverty line, an apalling figure but still the Rodent tells us that families have never been better off.

Of course none of this should be unexpected with a Liberal Govt. As I've always maintained they are the Government of the wealthy. Also the media are coming out with 'Oh Howard has pulled the rabbit out of the hat....Wow!!...like no-one could see that coming...Tax cuts!! ...now that's a new one...they've never come up with that one before at election time have they....Yeah right....And when you boil it all down, all he is doing is giving us our own money back...very generous. But I'll bet my bottom dollar Australians will fall for it all over again.

The man never ceases to amaze and disgust me...always appealing to and bringing out the worst in Australians and getting away with it. I see this coming election not so much as to determine who the next government will be but as a test of character of the nation.
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Post by BERT »

pevfan wrote:And still 1 in 10 Australians living below the poverty line, an apalling figure but still the Rodent tells us that families have never been better off.

Of course none of this should be unexpected with a Liberal Govt. As I've always maintained they are the Government of the wealthy. Also the media are coming out with 'Oh Howard has pulled the rabbit out of the hat....Wow!!...like no-one could see that coming...Tax cuts!! ...now that's a new one...they've never come up with that one before at election time have they....Yeah right....And when you boil it all down, all he is doing is giving us our own money back...very generous. But I'll bet my bottom dollar Australians will fall for it all over again.

The man never ceases to amaze and disgust me...always appealing to and bringing out the worst in Australians and getting away with it. I see this coming election not so much as to determine who the next government will be but as a test of character of the nation.
Well if Hawke lived up to his promise it wouldn't be a problem now would it?
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Post by billyduckworth »

Looking at this from a history point of view (yes, folks, I used to be a high school history teacher in a previous life)....

Are we looking at a repeat of 1969 or 1972?

1969 (for those of you who haven't seen the movie "Don's Party"):
public tired of Vietnam War, tired of Liberals in office for so many years, but Libs portray themselves as the experienced economic managers and somehow scrape back in (Labour scored over 50% on two party preferred, but failed to win a majority of seats, thanks to quirks in our system).

1972 ("It's time"):
public even more tired of Vietnam War (even the US had basically decided to get out by this time), public even more tired of Liberals in office for a record 23 years (exactly double the current Howard era), Labour comes up with many visionary new policies (health insurance, recognise Communist China, end National Service etc), Labour wins narrowly.

I personally hope it's a repeat of 1972, as I think we are ready for a change, but has Rudd presented a good enough alternative? Even with all of Whitlam's visionary ideas in 1972, Labour only JUST won the Reps and failed to get a majority in the Senate, sowing the seeds of the "constitutional crisis" in 1975.

At least in part because we have compulsory voting (the only country in the entire world to have this), the issues usually come down to the lowest common denominator...the hip pocket nerve. People could be stupid enough to vote for Howard on the basis of tax cuts and better "economic management".

Perhaps this will be a 1969, when Labour put up a very good show but didn't quite get over the line. I hope not.
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Post by jimmyc1985 »

billyduckworth wrote:Looking at this from a history point of view (yes, folks, I used to be a high school history teacher in a previous life)....

Are we looking at a repeat of 1969 or 1972?

1969 (for those of you who haven't seen the movie "Don's Party"):
public tired of Vietnam War, tired of Liberals in office for so many years, but Libs portray themselves as the experienced economic managers and somehow scrape back in (Labour scored over 50% on two party preferred, but failed to win a majority of seats, thanks to quirks in our system).

1972 ("It's time"):
public even more tired of Vietnam War (even the US had basically decided to get out by this time), public even more tired of Liberals in office for a record 23 years (exactly double the current Howard era), Labour comes up with many visionary new policies (health insurance, recognise Communist China, end National Service etc), Labour wins narrowly.

I personally hope it's a repeat of 1972, as I think we are ready for a change, but has Rudd presented a good enough alternative? Even with all of Whitlam's visionary ideas in 1972, Labour only JUST won the Reps and failed to get a majority in the Senate, sowing the seeds of the "constitutional crisis" in 1975.

At least in part because we have compulsory voting (the only country in the entire world to have this), the issues usually come down to the lowest common denominator...the hip pocket nerve. People could be stupid enough to vote for Howard on the basis of tax cuts and better "economic management".

Perhaps this will be a 1969, when Labour put up a very good show but didn't quite get over the line. I hope not.
I'm no student of history and obviously i wasn't around in either '69 or '72, but there's a (slightly tongue-in-cheek) article in today's Age that i think sums up this election reasonably well. The article (below) outlines that although in form only this election seems similar to '72 (long time Liberal government sailing to a heavy electoral defeat), there's a world of differences. This actually came up around the dinner table last night and my old man was of the same opinion - said when people voted for Gough in '72 they had reason to feel good about themselves because he was a highly intelligent, confident leader with an exciting vision for change that was long overdue. At the moment Rudd, on the other hand, is going to easily assume office mainly on the back of people's growing hatred and exasperation with Howard.

So it's apt to ask: should there be more to it than hating Howard?

http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/t ... 82911.html
The left needs to stand for more than just wanting Howard out.

I'VE now got three invitations to parties being held on November 24. I'm expecting more to arrive. I have no delusions about my popularity. It's not me that's got everyone so excited. It's the election.

Hosting an election party can be risky. If the wrong side gets up, you're stuck with a houseful of depressed inebriates, with some bore inevitably pontificating about how he knew they couldn't win.

For my generation of left-leaning thirtysomethings there has only been one election party that satisfied since we came of age — Keating's 1993 "unwinnable" victory. But this year my rapidly growing pile of invitations shows how confident my friends have become. The possibility that our Prime Minister might also lose his seat is the ultimate accompaniment to the victory so many of us crave.

When I was growing up, my parents regaled me with stories of another legendary election party held on the night of the 1972 Whitlam victory (I was in-utero at the time, so in a way I was actually there). Finally, after 23 years, the Coalition was ousted and a New World Order was heralded. No matter how brief his tenure and ignominious his downfall, Whitlam's win was remembered by them as a moment of promise, a cultural turning point.

Yet the thought that I'll one day follow in my parents' footsteps, impressing my own son with stories of the famous '07 election party, when Australia finally changed direction, doesn't quite ring true.

My friends and I are classic Howard-haters — the latte-dependent, over-educated, bleeding hearts that you've read so much about. The PM recently acknowledged that many people hate him. Not just his politics but him, personally. And when it comes to the so-called educated elites, the reason for our venom is simple. There have been many decisions by the Howard Government, from its handling of the Tampa incident to jackbooted indigenous intervention that we regarded as more than simply politically distasteful. These were moral questions.

But as deep as our disgust with the Prime Minister runs, we latte-sippers are essentially an impotent bunch. As Waleed Aly recently noted on this page, we've actually been a "self-renewing gift for the Coalition" as swinging voters have swung even closer to Howard whenever we've voiced opposition to him on moral grounds. Our self-righteous, chardonnay-soaked moralising has helped to sharpen Howard's wedge.
What's changed for us this year is the Liberal Party's catastrophic poll results. They've been feeding us Howard-haters with a weekly dose of blood, like droplets along the forest floor leading inevitably to the kill. But, in our excitement, are we becoming intoxicated by this blood lust and forgetting what really matters?

I was recently at a dinner party where everyone was gloating over the Government's poor polling. When one guest cautiously suggested that Rudd's me-too-ism is also disconcerting, she was immediately shot down. And yet no one really defended Rudd's policies, aside from reminding the dissenter that he speaks Mandarin.

Rudd has proved himself a skilful Opposition Leader but he, and his vision, remain elusive. It has been frequently observed that rather than taking the fight to the Government he has employed a strategy of avoiding confrontation. Troublingly, this has been particularly acute when it comes to the very moral issues that so incensed us Howard-haters in the first place. His spin is so well-spun that it's hard to be certain whether he intends to shake up the nation's consciousness or simply give us more of the same.

Perhaps, as Robert Manne argued, Rudd's reluctance to challenge the Liberal Party is really just a clever way of dodging the "rabbits" that Howard keeps pulling out of his hat. After all, it's the vote of "ordinary people" that will get the ALP over the line, as opposed to us "prosperous, professional 'elites' ".

But where does this leave us Howard-haters? Supporting the Opposition simply out of spite against the Prime Minister, without asking what we're getting instead? Perhaps we're wrong and we're not the moral voice of the nation. But if we're right and we are, then aren't we abrogating our responsibility? It's as if we've stopped caring who or what we vote for, as long as Howard loses.

If you don't believe that this is really happening then try this experiment: ask any self-identified Howard-hater why they're excited about the election. Will they reply with a list of the ALP's initiatives and policies, or will they simply say: "It looks like Howard's finally going to get it." Mandarin may or may not be mentioned.

Call me naive, but I like to imagine that back in '72 the discussion on election night focused on the positive vision of "It's Time" rather than the somewhat less dignified "Die, McMahon, die!" Of course, our '07 election eve celebrations could still go the way of that other famous shindig, Don's Party. Perhaps this wouldn't be all bad. Maybe next time we'd demand a bit more from the opposition.

Melbourne writer Monica Dux's book The Great Feminist Denial, co-written with Zora Simic, will be published by Melbourne University Press next year.
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Post by MH_Bomber »

I think Labor will have to match these tax cuts to defuse any appeal they have for the undecided voters. This is despite the fact that they may well contribute to higher interest rates. If they spend $34 billion over the same time frame but skew the tax cuts to the lower end of the tax scale they may well neutralise any bounce the Libs will get from them. Do the people on $200,000 plus need another $127 in their pocket for goodness sake ?

I would prefer to see them do something radical with that kind of money like provide more child care and make it free but means tested.

What really gets my goat is who is the Department of Treasury working for ? Is it the Australian people or the Liberal party. If they are going to provide a mid year revisal of budget figures surely they should have made these figures available to both sides of politics simultaneously. They are totally NOT independent. They act as an economic think tank for the Liberal Party.

By the way did anyone watch 4 Corners last night about the shonky relationship between the Liberal Party and the Exclusive Brethren ? It was quite shocking.
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Post by BenDoolan »

MH_Bomber wrote:I think Labor will have to match these tax cuts to defuse any appeal they have for the undecided voters. This is despite the fact that they may well contribute to higher interest rates. If they spend $34 billion over the same time frame but skew the tax cuts to the lower end of the tax scale they may well neutralise any bounce the Libs will get from them. Do the people on $200,000 plus need another $127 in their pocket for goodness sake ?

I would prefer to see them do something radical with that kind of money like provide more child care and make it free but means tested.

What really gets my goat is who is the Department of Treasury working for ? Is it the Australian people or the Liberal party. If they are going to provide a mid year revisal of budget figures surely they should have made these figures available to both sides of politics simultaneously. They are totally NOT independent. They act as an economic think tank for the Liberal Party.

By the way did anyone watch 4 Corners last night about the shonky relationship between the Liberal Party and the Exclusive Brethren ? It was quite shocking.
I would rather them come up with a better plan for the future of this country and use that money accordingly. To me, it's not good economic management to collect taxes if the sole purpose is to fatten the budget surplus and not spend it on necessary programs and infrastructure. If the ALP "match" their tax plan, they probably won't have the costings to fund the many programs they will promote during the campaign - and we'd have Costello laughing like a kookaburra saying "their figures just don't add up - they're not good economic managers".
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Post by MH_Bomber »

Yes I know what you mean BenDoolan. Its just very frustrating to think that they may lose some swinging seat voters because of this outrageous bribe. What I am saying is what they may need to do to get elected as opposed to what needs to be done.

I am happy with what the ALP has been saying today - they wont be bullied or rushed into releasing their tax policy.
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Post by dodgey »

$6 billion of Commonwealth Land to be released for affordable housing..... But don't know where it's going to come from :roll:

a great Idea Kev..... But maybe you should have looked into how much land the commonwealth had available...and where it is.... before going with it.
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