Mercy Campaign

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BenDoolan
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Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:24 am

Some of the shit being said or argued by this group is f****** disgraceful and nauseating. A great big f*** OFF to the lot of ya's.
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j-mac31
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by j-mac31 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:08 pm

I understand why government intervention is a last-ditch thing, but these men have been on death row for nearly ten years now. Why are normal people suddenly angry now? Or not angry about the many executions of non-Australians in the last 10 years?
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MH_Bomber
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by MH_Bomber » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:24 am

The reason is simply that there was the possibility that they would get presidency clemency. With this prospect snuffed out by Widodo, people now are of the belief that they actually will execute.

My beef is with the AFP tipping them off. The Bali 9 were attempting to import heroin into Australia. Why would our Federal Police think it right to let them get punished in Indonesia where there is the death penalty rather than bust and incarcerate them here ? The entire
thing was a political exercise designed to curry favour with the Indonesians so they would cooperate with our terrorist counter measures. That tip off will cost these 2 guys their lives. As stupid and bad an idea as these young people made 10 years ago, to me it just isn't any kind of capital crime.

I am vehemently opposed these two being executed for the following reasons;

They were not attempting to supply Indonesians with the drugs.
The 9 were simple mules are not the higher ups in the drug trade.
There is massive hypocrisy in Indonesia about who gets the death penalty for these kind of crimes.
Indonesian nationals have bribed judged to ensure they escaped the death penalty. Widodo did not even look at their cases.

There are those who will say the fact that the bali nine were importing heroin cost drug addicts live. I disagree that supplier is responsible. The addict is responsible unfortunately. Cutting off the heroin trade will not cure addicts from addiction.
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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:23 am

MH_Bomber wrote:The reason is simply that there was the possibility that they would get presidency clemency. With this prospect snuffed out by Widodo, people now are of the belief that they actually will execute.

My beef is with the AFP tipping them off. The Bali 9 were attempting to import heroin into Australia. Why would our Federal Police think it right to let them get punished in Indonesia where there is the death penalty rather than bust and incarcerate them here ? The entire
thing was a political exercise designed to curry favour with the Indonesians so they would cooperate with our terrorist counter measures. That tip off will cost these 2 guys their lives. As stupid and bad an idea as these young people made 10 years ago, to me it just isn't any kind of capital crime.

I am vehemently opposed these two being executed for the following reasons;

They were not attempting to supply Indonesians with the drugs.
The 9 were simple mules are not the higher ups in the drug trade.
There is massive hypocrisy in Indonesia about who gets the death penalty for these kind of crimes.
Indonesian nationals have bribed judged to ensure they escaped the death penalty. Widodo did not even look at their cases.

There are those who will say the fact that the bali nine were importing heroin cost drug addicts live. I disagree that supplier is responsible. The addict is responsible unfortunately. Cutting off the heroin trade will not cure addicts from addiction.
Yeah, the typical blame game of apologists. Blame the AFP. Blame the Indonesians law. Blame their judges. Blame the addicts.

It is then followed up (not saying you) with "boycott Bali", "pull foreign aid" bullshit.

They rolled the dice, and lost. The mules were spared. These scum are the ringleaders. They have no-one else to blame but themselves.
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MH_Bomber
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by MH_Bomber » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:35 am

They are not murderers Ben.

They were young and stupid and I thought they were mules as well. Otherwise why were they caught in Indonesia. The 10 years they have already served is punishment enough especially with the death penalty over their head for all this time.

I dont blame the addicts for being addicts but I am saying an addict is ultimately responsible for their own addiction. Do we blame barman who serve an alcoholic for the alcoholic's addiction ?

I DO blame the AFP because this crew could have been arrested and punished in Australia. They were stupid Australian people attempting to smuggle heroin into Australia. I remember the story distinctly at the time.

Have a read if this article and you might get the gist of where I am coming from Patrick Carlyon;
VETERAN Australian Federal Police investigators have ridiculed the force, saying the operation that led to the arrest and imminent executions of Bali Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran was “an indictment on Australian law enforcement”.

Serving and former AFP ­officers have told the Sunday Herald Sun the 2005 operation was a benchmark in “gross incompetence” which allowed the kingpins of the planned importation of heroin to Australia to escape capture.

One veteran AFP officer revealed local authorities were routinely not told of suspected drug deals, noting AFP guidelines against putting suspects in danger of the death penalty.

He claimed the AFP would typically intervene before suspects left Australia or after they arrived back here.

AUSTRALIA’S $1B LOAN TO INDONESIA CAN’T BUY MERCY

END IS NEAR FOR BALI NINE DUO

Another officer claimed the AFP tipped off the Indonesians to secure political goodwill.

“I’ve been part of operations when we’ve let drug couriers travel overseas and we don’t tell anybody,” the veteran officer said.

“We intercept them at an Australian airport and you get them searched and it’s all over, red rover. That was common practice, especially when you deal with a country that has the death penalty.”

Bali Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran will be executed soon.
Bali Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran will be executed soon.
In the 2005 Bali Nine case, the officer would have favoured intervention before the Australians left the country, arguing that conspiracy charges — and the “turning” of low-level mules into informants — would have led to a successful sting.

His view was based on the tip-off to the AFP provided by the father of Bali Nine member Scott Rush before Rush boarded a plane to Bali. It has long been believed that senior syndicate figures defied investigators and remain at large.

A growing list of AFP critics in recent days has extended to former foreign minister Bob Carr, who demanded a “more convincing explanation”.

The AFP has long defended the operation.

A spokesman said: “The AFP has been, at all times, transparent and accountable in relation to its actions on this matter, and has always acted appropriately and in accordance with Australian and international policies and guidelines.”

In 2006, then AFP commissioner Mick Keelty said: “If we ­allowed the narcotics to arrive here we’re actually culpable and complicit.”

Yet former AFP officers said it was common operational procedure to allow drugs to be couriered home.

Low-level couriers would be encouraged to “turn” in the pursuit of higher tiers in the drug network.

“You don’t want to shoot the monkey,” one former officer explained, “you want the organ grinder.”

Professor Michael Kennedy, of the University of Western Sydney, accused the AFP of an error of judgment.

“I don’t think a lot of thought went in to what they did,” he said.

One AFP officer, quoting from AFP training protocols, said it was enshrined procedure to protect suspects from the death penalty.

“It had nothing to do with the scourge of drugs,” said another of the Bali Nine operation.

“It had everything to do with appeasing the Indonesian government. It’s the political pointscoring of faceless, hollow men.”
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MH_Bomber

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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:56 am

MH_Bomber wrote:They are not murderers Ben.

They were young and stupid and I thought they were mules as well. Otherwise why were they caught in Indonesia. The 10 years they have already served is punishment enough especially with the death penalty over their head for all this time.

I dont blame the addicts for being addicts but I am saying an addict is ultimately responsible for their own addiction. Do we blame barman who serve an alcoholic for the alcoholic's addiction ?

I DO blame the AFP because this crew could have been arrested and punished in Australia. They were stupid Australian people attempting to smuggle heroin into Australia. I remember the story distinctly at the time.

Have a read if this article and you might get the gist of where I am coming from Patrick Carlyon;
VETERAN Australian Federal Police investigators have ridiculed the force, saying the operation that led to the arrest and imminent executions of Bali Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran was “an indictment on Australian law enforcement”.

Serving and former AFP ­officers have told the Sunday Herald Sun the 2005 operation was a benchmark in “gross incompetence” which allowed the kingpins of the planned importation of heroin to Australia to escape capture.

One veteran AFP officer revealed local authorities were routinely not told of suspected drug deals, noting AFP guidelines against putting suspects in danger of the death penalty.

He claimed the AFP would typically intervene before suspects left Australia or after they arrived back here.

AUSTRALIA’S $1B LOAN TO INDONESIA CAN’T BUY MERCY

END IS NEAR FOR BALI NINE DUO

Another officer claimed the AFP tipped off the Indonesians to secure political goodwill.

“I’ve been part of operations when we’ve let drug couriers travel overseas and we don’t tell anybody,” the veteran officer said.

“We intercept them at an Australian airport and you get them searched and it’s all over, red rover. That was common practice, especially when you deal with a country that has the death penalty.”

Bali Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran will be executed soon.
Bali Nine ringleaders Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran will be executed soon.
In the 2005 Bali Nine case, the officer would have favoured intervention before the Australians left the country, arguing that conspiracy charges — and the “turning” of low-level mules into informants — would have led to a successful sting.

His view was based on the tip-off to the AFP provided by the father of Bali Nine member Scott Rush before Rush boarded a plane to Bali. It has long been believed that senior syndicate figures defied investigators and remain at large.

A growing list of AFP critics in recent days has extended to former foreign minister Bob Carr, who demanded a “more convincing explanation”.

The AFP has long defended the operation.

A spokesman said: “The AFP has been, at all times, transparent and accountable in relation to its actions on this matter, and has always acted appropriately and in accordance with Australian and international policies and guidelines.”

In 2006, then AFP commissioner Mick Keelty said: “If we ­allowed the narcotics to arrive here we’re actually culpable and complicit.”

Yet former AFP officers said it was common operational procedure to allow drugs to be couriered home.

Low-level couriers would be encouraged to “turn” in the pursuit of higher tiers in the drug network.

“You don’t want to shoot the monkey,” one former officer explained, “you want the organ grinder.”

Professor Michael Kennedy, of the University of Western Sydney, accused the AFP of an error of judgment.

“I don’t think a lot of thought went in to what they did,” he said.

One AFP officer, quoting from AFP training protocols, said it was enshrined procedure to protect suspects from the death penalty.

“It had nothing to do with the scourge of drugs,” said another of the Bali Nine operation.

“It had everything to do with appeasing the Indonesian government. It’s the political pointscoring of faceless, hollow men.”
When drugs are being pushed in schools, don't play down the role these cretins played in it. Blaming an addict for these maggots. FMD.

I am fully aware of the AFP role in this case. And I fully applaud them. I laugh at those who criticise them.
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robrulz5
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by robrulz5 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:09 am

The thing I don't get is why the Bali bombers aren't on death row as well. Is it because they are Indonesian?

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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:18 am

robrulz5 wrote:The thing I don't get is why the Bali bombers aren't on death row as well. Is it because they are Indonesian?
Samudra, Amrozi and Mukhlas were executed in 2008.
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by robrulz5 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:50 am

BenDoolan wrote:
robrulz5 wrote:The thing I don't get is why the Bali bombers aren't on death row as well. Is it because they are Indonesian?
Samudra, Amrozi and Mukhlas were executed in 2008.
Ah well damn, should have learnt to stop believing what I read over the last 2 years. :oops:

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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by MH_Bomber » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:56 am

Those 3 were terrorists that killed over 200 people. I think there is a massive difference.

The Indonesians not executed are drug traffickers on similar charges. They managed to bribe the judges in their cases and escape the death penalty that way.
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:59 am

MH_Bomber wrote:Those 3 were terrorists that killed over 200 people. I think there is a massive difference.

The Indonesians not executed are drug traffickers on similar charges. They managed to bribe the judges in their cases and escape the death penalty that way.
Well, perhaps the dopey bastards could have tried that?

And for your information, about 4 Australians die from overdoses every day. Don't try to paint these parasites like they are harmless.
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by tonysoprano » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:22 am

BenDoolan wrote:
MH_Bomber wrote:Those 3 were terrorists that killed over 200 people. I think there is a massive difference.

The Indonesians not executed are drug traffickers on similar charges. They managed to bribe the judges in their cases and escape the death penalty that way.
Well, perhaps the dopey bastards could have tried that?

And for your information, about 4 Australians die from overdoses every day. Don't try to paint these parasites like they are harmless.
Perhaps we should execute tobacco and alcohol manufacturers as well?
Killing anyone will never solve anything. But I do accept Indonesia are very clear on their law and have every right to carry it out. I also think its a good thing we argue the case against doing it. I also think its ridiculous the whole "boycott Bali" etc etc.

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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by rockhole » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:01 pm

MH_Bomber wrote:They were not attempting to supply Indonesians with the drugs.
.
So it is quite permissible to supply other nationalities with drugs???!!!

If they really wanted to show contrition, remorse and curry favour with their captives, perhaps they should have given up the guys they were working for.

They knew the risks, they knew what they were doing, and had they not been caught, would have kept on doing it. The "Born Again Christian" defence just doesn't wash with me.
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by MH_Bomber » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:31 pm

People that attempt to do what the Bali 9 are not going around personally supplying addicts with drugs. There is an entire industry dedicated to that. Anyone who knows anything about this whole policy of "war on drugs" knows it doesn''t work. It didn't work during the era of prohibition on alcohol and it wont work now.

Anyone attempting to do what they did must have been desperate. Should someone in these people positions making a massive mistake in what they were doing pay with their lives ?

What I am saying about the fact they were trying to bring the drug here is that it is this jurisdiction that should have them dealt out the punishment. Mick Keelty and his AFP mates made a decision. That decision was to curry favour with the Indonesians over the arrest of this lot. That decision will lead to 2 of them being executed.
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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:23 pm

MH_Bomber wrote:People that attempt to do what the Bali 9 are not going around personally supplying addicts with drugs. There is an entire industry dedicated to that. Anyone who knows anything about this whole policy of "war on drugs" knows it doesn''t work. It didn't work during the era of prohibition on alcohol and it wont work now.
They are in the game. Just because they didn't "personally supply" addicts, doesn't mean they didn't contribute to it. I don't know why you are trying to dismiss their evil trade as if it's like supplying bottled water.
Anyone attempting to do what they did must have been desperate. Should someone in these people positions making a massive mistake in what they were doing pay with their lives ?
Let's break out the violins and harps. These vermin had jobs. They also chose to trade in deadly drugs. They went to a place that deals out death. And that's what they've got. Spare me the "woe is them" line.
What I am saying about the fact they were trying to bring the drug here is that it is this jurisdiction that should have them dealt out the punishment. Mick Keelty and his AFP mates made a decision. That decision was to curry favour with the Indonesians over the arrest of this lot. That decision will lead to 2 of them being executed.
Too bad, so sad. AFP did the right thing.

Perhaps the decision of Chan and Sukumaran is going to cost them their lives?
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by MH_Bomber » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:26 pm

I hope no one you know never stuffs up and makes a bad mistake.
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by Sismis » Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:38 pm

I agree MH. The AFP majorly stuffed this up.

http://www.afp.gov.au/~/media/afp/pdf/i ... ations.pdf

The AFP is required to consider relevant factors before providing information to foreign law enforcement agencies if it is aware the provision of information is likely to result in the prosecution of an identified person for an offence carrying the death penalty.

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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by grassy1 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:59 pm

Boycotting Bali is just a plain,stupid move by those getting high and mighty with the Indonesian Government.Boycotting Java and Sumatra won't make a jot of difference either.

I don't agree with the Death Penalty.But who are to Dictate on what Indonesia should and shouldn't do with Death Row Inmates,who have clearly stuffed up?!

What I don't quite get about the AFP's role in this,is if they were all over the Bali 9 from Day 1,couldn't they provide any info on who supplied the Bali 9 with the Drugs in the 1st place.If they didn't know that,at least try to persuade the 9 to take the Risk(and it was the risk of reprisals against the families of the accused)of turning in The Mr Bigs(their suppliers)in exchange for Life Imprisonment?

As for Indonesian Government,if it is Intent on playing The Tough On Drugs line,Fine!But it's time for someone to take the tough stand on the Drug/Crime Lords and put them up against the Post!Otherwise the same problem exists!They'll catch and execute the Mules,but by their own admission,they'll still be "Awash with Drugs".

They are still a relatively new Government!So here's their chance to Make a Statement and Nail the Big Boys.If they don't,their Tough stance on drugs will simply sound Very Hollow!Indonesia doesn't anyone any favours about this,except themselves.Like try a slightly different tack on this.If that means Nailing Corrupt Government and Military Officials for any 1 of 16 Capital Offens(Source - Paul Murray,The West Australian21/02/15)on their books,not just Drug Trafficking,let's see if their actions speak louder than words.

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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by nudder12 » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:59 pm

The issue in this case has nothing to do with the crime, it's all about the death penalty, and that they're Australian.
I'd have a lot more sympathy for the cause to spare these 2 if there was anything even remotely like this "uproar" for every other person sentenced to death anywhere in the world.
I'm afraid in this case they knew the potential consequences yet risked them regardless, and were caught, and will (likely) suffer those known consequences.

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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:47 am

MH_Bomber wrote:I hope no one you know never stuffs up and makes a bad mistake.
You should say "I hope no-one you know dies from scum like this".
Unfortunately, you can't drown a witch!

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