Mercy Campaign

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MH_Bomber
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by MH_Bomber » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:16 am

I'd love to know what you'd be like if you ever met these guys families Ben. Would you be as callous as it appears you are being now ? I just cant imagine what they are going through knowing at any moment they could be shipped off to some island, held and shot by firing squad in the dead of night. Two people that have spent a third of their lives in prison paying for some bad decisions. Two people that have since reformed their characters. To me its shocking waste of human life for these two to be killed now.

In regards the death penalty in general, I am not saying these 2 were angels far from it. However I DO see a difference in the level of crime these two committed compared to that of say the Bali bombing terrorists. I just dont get how you cant see that. I know you are big on dealing harshly with miscreants but there still must be distinction in punishments between those that do heinous crimes like murder and those that traffic drugs. IMHO 10 years jail is about right for what they did.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.
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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:36 am

MH_Bomber wrote:I'd love to know what you'd be like if you ever met these guys families Ben. Would you be as callous as it appears you are being now ? I just cant imagine what they are going through knowing at any moment they could be shipped off to some island, held and shot by firing squad in the dead of night. Two people that have spent a third of their lives in prison paying for some bad decisions. Two people that have since reformed their characters. To me its shocking waste of human life for these two to be killed now.

In regards the death penalty in general, I am not saying these 2 were angels far from it. However I DO see a difference in the level of crime these two committed compared to that of say the Bali bombing terrorists. I just dont get how you cant see that. I know you are big on dealing harshly with miscreants but there still must be distinction in punishments between those that do heinous crimes like murder and those that traffic drugs. IMHO 10 years jail is about right for what they did.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.
I feel absolute sorrow for the families........of victims of drug fuelled violence, drug overdosing kids, and those who lost lives on the streets and cars due to drug affected drivers. The list goes on.

It is a waste of their lives. But they chose to gamble with it. Perhaps vermin need to start respecting the laws of other nations and stop expecting a different result when they get busted.

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by Crazyman » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:59 am

Personally, I can't stand vermin that pedal drugs (anywhere in the world), however, the problem needs to be tackled much higher up the chain than these guys...
The death penalty will deter a few on the fringe that might think about trafficking, however, the source of the drugs is where the focus should be and it's the drug barons that deserve the death penalty and not naive stupid carriers (who deserve their own punishments...)

With regards to the Bali 9 guys, from all the reports it sounds like they have genuinely changed their ways (however, I wonder how much of that is genuine if you were to put them back into society...)

Finally, the Indonesian govt are hypocrites - happy to step in for their citizens and get them off death row in other countries for crimes such as murder and trafficking, but couldn't give 2 shits about foreign nationals in their country who they will more than happily apply the death penalty to...

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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by mdso » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:42 pm

MH_Bomber wrote:The reason is simply that there was the possibility that they would get presidency clemency. With this prospect snuffed out by Widodo, people now are of the belief that they actually will execute.

My beef is with the AFP tipping them off. The Bali 9 were attempting to import heroin into Australia. Why would our Federal Police think it right to let them get punished in Indonesia where there is the death penalty rather than bust and incarcerate them here ? The entire
thing was a political exercise designed to curry favour with the Indonesians so they would cooperate with our terrorist counter measures. That tip off will cost these 2 guys their lives. As stupid and bad an idea as these young people made 10 years ago, to me it just isn't any kind of capital crime.

I am vehemently opposed these two being executed for the following reasons;

They were not attempting to supply Indonesians with the drugs.
The 9 were simple mules are not the higher ups in the drug trade.
There is massive hypocrisy in Indonesia about who gets the death penalty for these kind of crimes.
Indonesian nationals have bribed judged to ensure they escaped the death penalty. Widodo did not even look at their cases.

There are those who will say the fact that the bali nine were importing heroin cost drug addicts live. I disagree that supplier is responsible. The addict is responsible unfortunately. Cutting off the heroin trade will not cure addicts from addiction.
Cutting off supply or the shortage of supply, simply slides the person looking to buy, sideways, they switch from one drug to another. It stop or doesn't curb addiction. The death penalty has not lessened the drug trade in any way at all.
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by mdso » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:51 pm

Crazyman wrote:Personally, I can't stand vermin that pedal drugs (anywhere in the world), however, the problem needs to be tackled much higher up the chain than these guys...
The death penalty will deter a few on the fringe that might think about trafficking, however, the source of the drugs is where the focus should be and it's the drug barons that deserve the death penalty and not naive stupid carriers (who deserve their own punishments...)

With regards to the Bali 9 guys, from all the reports it sounds like they have genuinely changed their ways (however, I wonder how much of that is genuine if you were to put them back into society...)

Finally, the Indonesian govt are hypocrites - happy to step in for their citizens and get them off death row in other countries for crimes such as murder and trafficking, but couldn't give 2 shits about foreign nationals in their country who they will more than happily apply the death penalty to...

Saving face is important than saving lives in Asian Culture. Anyone who rehabilitates in a place like that is virtually a walking miracle. A person who could be utilised in countless ways inside and outside, doing wonderful work because of who they are and what they have done. It would give them credibility and authenticity. However any transformation, is unimportant nor valid because the result was carved in stone from the beginning. There was never any chance of getting with a lesser charge without a bribe. That's the way the system works.
Nothing usually happens until something happens.

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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:16 pm

mdso wrote:
MH_Bomber wrote:The reason is simply that there was the possibility that they would get presidency clemency. With this prospect snuffed out by Widodo, people now are of the belief that they actually will execute.

My beef is with the AFP tipping them off. The Bali 9 were attempting to import heroin into Australia. Why would our Federal Police think it right to let them get punished in Indonesia where there is the death penalty rather than bust and incarcerate them here ? The entire
thing was a political exercise designed to curry favour with the Indonesians so they would cooperate with our terrorist counter measures. That tip off will cost these 2 guys their lives. As stupid and bad an idea as these young people made 10 years ago, to me it just isn't any kind of capital crime.

I am vehemently opposed these two being executed for the following reasons;

They were not attempting to supply Indonesians with the drugs.
The 9 were simple mules are not the higher ups in the drug trade.
There is massive hypocrisy in Indonesia about who gets the death penalty for these kind of crimes.
Indonesian nationals have bribed judged to ensure they escaped the death penalty. Widodo did not even look at their cases.

There are those who will say the fact that the bali nine were importing heroin cost drug addicts live. I disagree that supplier is responsible. The addict is responsible unfortunately. Cutting off the heroin trade will not cure addicts from addiction.
Cutting off supply or the shortage of supply, simply slides the person looking to buy, sideways, they switch from one drug to another. It stop or doesn't curb addiction. The death penalty has not lessened the drug trade in any way at all.
Neither does incarceration. So what do you do, just let them off?
Unfortunately, you can't drown a witch!

Sismis
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by Sismis » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:01 am

If you want to save lives. Injecting rooms have proven to do that. Legalising a lot recreational drugs will also help.

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boncer34
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by boncer34 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:43 pm

Whether you agree with the death penalty or not this Mercy Campaign is a joke.

Nobody is going to take us or anyone seriously when the only time we campaign against the Death Penalty is when 2 Australians in Indonesia are in line for the squad.
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Sismis
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by Sismis » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:45 pm

boncer34 wrote:Whether you agree with the death penalty or not this Mercy Campaign is a joke.

Nobody is going to take us or anyone seriously when the only time we campaign against the Death Penalty is when 2 Australians in Indonesia are in line for the squad.
This is just the curse of nationalism coupled with the curse of a useless sensationalist media.

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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by grassy1 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:16 am

....most of whom are For the Death Penalty anyway.Yet another Irony about this situation,but with theAustralian Media,why am I not surprised?

Most of them probably go by the Frontline tag,where they'd believe that a Pub Brawl in Manly Rates better than a Massacre of Millions.And the story doesn't have footage,it sure as better well include Australians.Nothing'schanged in the last 15 - 20 Years,Mr Sitch and company! :( :( :( :( :(

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boncer34
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by boncer34 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:55 am

Sismis wrote:
boncer34 wrote:Whether you agree with the death penalty or not this Mercy Campaign is a joke.

Nobody is going to take us or anyone seriously when the only time we campaign against the Death Penalty is when 2 Australians in Indonesia are in line for the squad.
This is just the curse of nationalism coupled with the curse of a useless sensationalist media.
True.

I just wish that people would get this outrages when a bloke in the US was sent to the gas chamber.
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tonysoprano
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by tonysoprano » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:58 am

boncer34 wrote:
Sismis wrote:
boncer34 wrote:Whether you agree with the death penalty or not this Mercy Campaign is a joke.

Nobody is going to take us or anyone seriously when the only time we campaign against the Death Penalty is when 2 Australians in Indonesia are in line for the squad.
This is just the curse of nationalism coupled with the curse of a useless sensationalist media.
True.

I just wish that people would get this outrages when a bloke in the US was sent to the gas chamber.
So the campaign is a joke, and you wish people would get more outraged?

Is it possible that a campaign like this is a pre-requisite to a more concerted effort to reverse the practice globally? Maybe it does inspire discussion, and change people's opinions, and in turn affect political will?

I have a mate who was of the same opinion as many of you ("they knew what they were doing, they knew the penalty", they only "rehab" when they got caught). He watched a video on abc.net.au - I think it was a 730 or Drum interview with the artist Ben Quilty. He came back to me saying he has changed his mind on the issue he was so affected by it. Perhaps worth a look if its still up.

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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:30 am

tonysoprano wrote:
boncer34 wrote:
Sismis wrote:
boncer34 wrote:Whether you agree with the death penalty or not this Mercy Campaign is a joke.

Nobody is going to take us or anyone seriously when the only time we campaign against the Death Penalty is when 2 Australians in Indonesia are in line for the squad.
This is just the curse of nationalism coupled with the curse of a useless sensationalist media.
True.

I just wish that people would get this outrages when a bloke in the US was sent to the gas chamber.
So the campaign is a joke, and you wish people would get more outraged?

Is it possible that a campaign like this is a pre-requisite to a more concerted effort to reverse the practice globally? Maybe it does inspire discussion, and change people's opinions, and in turn affect political will?

I have a mate who was of the same opinion as many of you ("they knew what they were doing, they knew the penalty", they only "rehab" when they got caught). He watched a video on abc.net.au - I think it was a 730 or Drum interview with the artist Ben Quilty. He came back to me saying he has changed his mind on the issue he was so affected by it. Perhaps worth a look if its still up.
Should get him to watch a doco on the Anita Cobby murder...
Unfortunately, you can't drown a witch!

Sismis
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by Sismis » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:22 pm

tonysoprano wrote:
boncer34 wrote:
Sismis wrote:
boncer34 wrote:Whether you agree with the death penalty or not this Mercy Campaign is a joke.

Nobody is going to take us or anyone seriously when the only time we campaign against the Death Penalty is when 2 Australians in Indonesia are in line for the squad.
This is just the curse of nationalism coupled with the curse of a useless sensationalist media.
True.

I just wish that people would get this outrages when a bloke in the US was sent to the gas chamber.
So the campaign is a joke, and you wish people would get more outraged?

Is it possible that a campaign like this is a pre-requisite to a more concerted effort to reverse the practice globally? Maybe it does inspire discussion, and change people's opinions, and in turn affect political will?
I think will be a crossover of people who are constantly fighting against the death penalty everywhere. But I think many of people involved in this campaign have been swayed by nationalism and the media barrage.
I have a mate who was of the same opinion as many of you ("they knew what they were doing, they knew the penalty", they only "rehab" when they got caught). He watched a video on abc.net.au - I think it was a 730 or Drum interview with the artist Ben Quilty. He came back to me saying he has changed his mind on the issue he was so affected by it. Perhaps worth a look if its still up.

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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by MH_Bomber » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:41 pm

Should get him to watch a doco on the Anita Cobby murder...
Again Ben you equate the horrifying and heinous crime like the Anita Cobby murder with the crime these young fools did. Surely you have a concept of the punishment fitting the crime. I simply dont equate drug trafficking to murder. I agree the drug trade does cause misery but there is a difference between the Mr Bigs and the Bali 9.
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by Crazyman » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:44 pm

MH_Bomber wrote:
Should get him to watch a doco on the Anita Cobby murder...
Again Ben you equate the horrifying and heinous crime like the Anita Cobby murder with the crime these young fools did. Surely you have a concept of the punishment fitting the crime. I simply dont equate drug trafficking to murder. I agree the drug trade does cause misery but there is a difference between the Mr Bigs and the Bali 9.
Have to agree with MH here.
As I said earlier, the Bali 9 are vermin for trafficking drugs, however, when was the last time an actual drug baron that runs the show was caught? These are the ones that deserve the stiffest penalties because guys like the Bali 9 are a dime a dozen and readily replaceable...

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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:42 pm

MH_Bomber wrote:
Should get him to watch a doco on the Anita Cobby murder...
Again Ben you equate the horrifying and heinous crime like the Anita Cobby murder with the crime these young fools did. Surely you have a concept of the punishment fitting the crime. I simply dont equate drug trafficking to murder. I agree the drug trade does cause misery but there is a difference between the Mr Bigs and the Bali 9.
Well, you see, quite a lot of these despicable crimes are committed by filth high on drugs. And some addicts actually receive a "death penalty" for their addiction. I don't hear anyone protesting about that death penalty and pleading for mercy there. Most will say (and you've said it), these addicts are to blame for their own addiction, and therefore, must suffer the consequences. A bit like these two.....they chose to risk their lives by trafficking, and lost.
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Sismis
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by Sismis » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:17 am

BD so do you support in the introduction of injection rooms, prescription drugs for addicts and the legalisation of drugs like cannabis?

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BenDoolan
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by BenDoolan » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:32 am

Sismis wrote:BD so do you support in the introduction of injection rooms, prescription drugs for addicts and the legalisation of drugs like cannabis?
Yes I do. Anything that can help eradicate the poisonous environment we are currently experiencing is a good thing.
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j-mac31
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Re: Mercy Campaign

Post by j-mac31 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:43 pm

tonysoprano wrote:
boncer34 wrote:
Sismis wrote:
boncer34 wrote:Whether you agree with the death penalty or not this Mercy Campaign is a joke.

Nobody is going to take us or anyone seriously when the only time we campaign against the Death Penalty is when 2 Australians in Indonesia are in line for the squad.
This is just the curse of nationalism coupled with the curse of a useless sensationalist media.
True.

I just wish that people would get this outrages when a bloke in the US was sent to the gas chamber.
So the campaign is a joke, and you wish people would get more outraged?

Is it possible that a campaign like this is a pre-requisite to a more concerted effort to reverse the practice globally? Maybe it does inspire discussion, and change people's opinions, and in turn affect political will?

I have a mate who was of the same opinion as many of you ("they knew what they were doing, they knew the penalty", they only "rehab" when they got caught). He watched a video on abc.net.au - I think it was a 730 or Drum interview with the artist Ben Quilty. He came back to me saying he has changed his mind on the issue he was so affected by it. Perhaps worth a look if its still up.
I doubt a campaign like this will have much of an impact on the general feelings on the death penalty world wide.
The previous PM (in one of his turns) essentially praised Indonesia's death penalty when the Bali bombers were killed.
People are outraged when IS beheads a journalist, but how many Arabs have they already brutally murdered?

It's like pretty white young woman syndrome - certain cases garner far more interest and attention than others.

FWIW I'm against the death penalty, but I have absolutely no sympathy for dickheads who go and commit crimes where they know they could be put to death.
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