WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

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mdso
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WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by mdso » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:37 am

WHAT IS THIS SAME SEX COUPLE OR GAY MARRIAGE ABOUT?

In the beginning this was NOT about gay or same sex couplings/relationships. When John Howard changed the Marriage Act the Defacto Laws were also changed which completely excludes same sex couples. Because the changes are only about a man and a woman. So under Australian Law any same sex relationship is not recognised under Australian Law. That means that same sex couples are NOT automatically entitled to the same entitlements under law that a hetro defacto couple are. THAT IS NOT FAIR! It also means that the family of a same sex couple can challenge any legal documentation because the relationship is NOT recognised under Australian Law. This has real ramifications for same sex couples in terms of Power of Attorney, Wills, Superannuation, Health and Medical Benefits, Hospitalization and Living Wills.

Think about this.... how would you feel if someone you know who is in a same sex relationship was stopped from being with their very ill partner in hospital and was unable to make any medical decisions on their behalf, even if that was requested because one partner's family objected. It happens.

The family of one same sex partner, who do not approve of the relationship, can make life hell for a partner and fight them all the way through the courts to stop them inheriting or making any decisions on their partner's behalf. NO, it happens.

It was NOT the gay community who started this GAY MARRIAGE THING, equalisation is about EQUAL RIGHTS UNDER AUSTRALIAN LAW. It had nothing to do with marriage. In fact many gay people I know, are not interested in marrying but they do want equal Defacto rights under Australian Law. And I believe everyone deserves that. Make sure you know exactly what you are voting for and what it really represents, because all is not equal.
Last edited by mdso on Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by Sismis » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:30 am

This.

I'd suggest people thinking about voting no examine the arguments that are being presented by the NO campaign. None of them stand up to any scrutiny. Noone will be affected by SSM except gay people who will be able to be married.

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by tonysoprano » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:08 pm

Very interesting.

There was an article in the financial section of the Australian a few weeks back which said laws relating to super, insurance, death benefits etc were changed approx 10 years ago to make same-sex relationships the equal of marriage and de facto relationships.

So not really sure what the truth is. But,I see little reason to exclude same-sex couples from the definition of marriage. Though it appears quite a substantial minority do.

This "vote" will be interesting.

edit: sorry, here is the article...

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 29b4a70b64

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by MH_Bomber » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 pm

How is the way the No campaign refuse actually argue anything about the question at hand? They mention complete furphies like the Safe Schools program and religious freedom.

I cant imagine the majority of those voting will be hoodwinked by the out and out lies by the likes of the ' concerned' mothers.

My prediction Yes will get up with 65% to 70%.
Fixed
Last edited by MH_Bomber on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rockhole
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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by rockhole » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:45 pm

MH_Bomber wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 pm
How is the way tbe No csmpaigb refuse actually argue anything the question at hand? They mrntion complete furphies like the Safe Schools program and religious freedom.

I csnt imagine the majority of those voting will be hoodwinked by the out and out lies by the likes of the ' concerned' mothers.

My prediction Yes will get up with 65% to 70%.
How many reds before you wrote this!! :) :)
Too far for Baker now he's on to it, now he’s got it, OPEN GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Dons are in front by one point at the 8 minute mark

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by MH_Bomber » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:13 am

I wrote it on my phone and when I dont have my glasses on I dont obviously see the typos.

Looking back on it now it looks like I had a couple of flagons.🍾🥂
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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by mdso » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:08 pm

tonysoprano: H'm, someone didn't do their research properly or, this editorial is misleading and nothing but a diversionary tactic meant to confuse.

Prior to John Howard changing the Law in 2004, Australia probably lead the world in terms the Marriage Act and Defacto Relationships, which is probably why, JH changed the Marriage Act and Defacto Relationships to read a man and a woman. This had serious repercussions for same sex couples and their children and terminology around next of kin. This meant that same sex couples were not recognised under the Defacto Relationships in the Marriage Act of 2004 under Australian Law.

What does this mean for same sex couples? It means that any legal documents drawn up can be challenged as the relationship is not recognised under the Australian Marriage Act. So, even though couples may have a will, a living will and powers of attorney, they can be ignored and the persons wishes overlooked. For instance, in NSW our POA and Medical POA has to worded in a particular way to include the ACT. Because if someone from NSW were to be hospitalized in ACT, someone very officious, could refuse to honour those documents and not allow a partner in a same sex relationship, to make any decisions on behalf of their partner. If one party's family didn't like or accept the partner or recognise their relationship, they could refuse to allow them to visit their partner, make any decisions on their behalf, even if those wishes were what their partner wanted. The family could also prevent someone from participating in the partner's funeral or having access to the ashes. It is happening right now and it is a disgrace. At a time, when people are at their most vulnerable, the last thing anyone needs is this sort of infighting, argument or disagreement over legal documents, superannuation, living will, funeral wishes or estate and terminology around next of kin.

Much of the Liberal Parties funding comes from the Christian Lobby and it is a substantial amount. And; many are not in favour of same sex marriage nor is the Catholic Church, Greek Orthodox and others. In 2004, Australia changed the Marriage Act, which was one of the most accepting and futuristic and other countries around the world created a similar Marriage Act, to the Act we changed. These changes put us out of step with many other countries, who have now legalised same sex marriage. The sky hasn't fallen in yet in any of those places.
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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by grassy1 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:49 pm

Leaning towards Yes,but I just need one last good arguement to convince me.

Got a Flyer Friday,which seemed convincing enough,but didn't catch who wrote it which on Friday Night(on the way to the pub),wasn't going to be remembered quickly,late Saturday Morning.

Not to much from the No campaign convinces me to vote that way.Just need the Clincher from the Yes Camp.I might still vote No myself,but that won't be the end if it if the No vote gets up.

The Issue will simply be on the Backburner for 5 - 10 years,simmering away.But be warned,any political party that Rams it through Parliament.

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by j-mac31 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:15 pm

grassy1 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:49 pm
Leaning towards Yes,but I just need one last good arguement to convince me.
"LGBTQI people should have equal rights" isn't enough?
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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by Crazyman » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:48 pm

Regardless of my personal opinion, the govt is meant to be there for all ppl.
So frankly whether I would vote yes or no means f*** all when those elected can't do their own damn job :evil:

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by tonysoprano » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:25 pm

j-mac31 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:15 pm
grassy1 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:49 pm
Leaning towards Yes,but I just need one last good arguement to convince me.
"LGBTQI people should have equal rights" isn't enough?
Agree, but not clear on what's not equal, other than the word marriage.

And like crazy - not sure why I (or any one else) have any say on others getting married, seems truly bizarre.

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by Sismis » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:53 am

tonysoprano wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:25 pm
j-mac31 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:15 pm
grassy1 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:49 pm
Leaning towards Yes,but I just need one last good arguement to convince me.
"LGBTQI people should have equal rights" isn't enough?
Agree, but not clear on what's not equal, other than the word marriage.

And like crazy - not sure why I (or any one else) have any say on others getting married, seems truly bizarre.
Bizarre is the word for it. I think there are 2 things at play here. 1. Politicians are weak as piss. They have no other agenda other than getting reelected. I think they know this has to happen but they don't want to risk anything to get it done. This way they can say "will of the people" and not take any responsibility.

The second thing is a bit of a conspiracy theory but it seems to be playing out. Why have religious conservatives been pushing so hard to get this thing?Every poll I've seen shows them being beaten badly. I think with non-religious people now starting to outnumber religious they are getting very scared. Have a look at their arguments, they are all about "religious freedom" and "slippery slopes", "what is going to be taught in schools" etc. I think they are using this as an opportunity to get additional legal protections put in place to protect their interests.

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by rockhole » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:44 am

Has we stuck to the referendum, the whole thing would now have been done and dusted.
Too far for Baker now he's on to it, now he’s got it, OPEN GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Dons are in front by one point at the 8 minute mark

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by BenDoolan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:49 am

mdso wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:08 pm
Prior to John Howard changing the Law in 2004, Australia probably lead the world in terms the Marriage Act and Defacto Relationships, which is probably why, JH changed the Marriage Act and Defacto Relationships to read a man and a woman. This had serious repercussions for same sex couples and their children and terminology around next of kin. This meant that same sex couples were not recognised under the Defacto Relationships in the Marriage Act of 2004 under Australian Law.

What does this mean for same sex couples? It means that any legal documents drawn up can be challenged as the relationship is not recognised under the Australian Marriage Act. So, even though couples may have a will, a living will and powers of attorney, they can be ignored and the persons wishes overlooked. For instance, in NSW our POA and Medical POA has to worded in a particular way to include the ACT. Because if someone from NSW were to be hospitalized in ACT, someone very officious, could refuse to honour those documents and not allow a partner in a same sex relationship, to make any decisions on behalf of their partner. If one party's family didn't like or accept the partner or recognise their relationship, they could refuse to allow them to visit their partner, make any decisions on their behalf, even if those wishes were what their partner wanted. The family could also prevent someone from participating in the partner's funeral or having access to the ashes. It is happening right now and it is a disgrace. At a time, when people are at their most vulnerable, the last thing anyone needs is this sort of infighting, argument or disagreement over legal documents, superannuation, living will, funeral wishes or estate and terminology around next of kin.
I have to ask, how is a LBGTQ individual excluded from being appointed as a power of attorney?

I ask this question because I personally know of someone who is appointed as such, and there is no issue.

The points to challenge a POA doesn't mention anything about having to be legally married.

As for arguments of legal documents, this has been occurring within families since forever and a day.
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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by boncer34 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:42 pm

BenDoolan wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:49 am
mdso wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:08 pm
Prior to John Howard changing the Law in 2004, Australia probably lead the world in terms the Marriage Act and Defacto Relationships, which is probably why, JH changed the Marriage Act and Defacto Relationships to read a man and a woman. This had serious repercussions for same sex couples and their children and terminology around next of kin. This meant that same sex couples were not recognised under the Defacto Relationships in the Marriage Act of 2004 under Australian Law.

What does this mean for same sex couples? It means that any legal documents drawn up can be challenged as the relationship is not recognised under the Australian Marriage Act. So, even though couples may have a will, a living will and powers of attorney, they can be ignored and the persons wishes overlooked. For instance, in NSW our POA and Medical POA has to worded in a particular way to include the ACT. Because if someone from NSW were to be hospitalized in ACT, someone very officious, could refuse to honour those documents and not allow a partner in a same sex relationship, to make any decisions on behalf of their partner. If one party's family didn't like or accept the partner or recognise their relationship, they could refuse to allow them to visit their partner, make any decisions on their behalf, even if those wishes were what their partner wanted. The family could also prevent someone from participating in the partner's funeral or having access to the ashes. It is happening right now and it is a disgrace. At a time, when people are at their most vulnerable, the last thing anyone needs is this sort of infighting, argument or disagreement over legal documents, superannuation, living will, funeral wishes or estate and terminology around next of kin.
I have to ask, how is a LBGTQ individual excluded from being appointed as a power of attorney?

I ask this question because I personally know of someone who is appointed as such, and there is no issue.

The points to challenge a POA doesn't mention anything about having to be legally married.

As for arguments of legal documents, this has been occurring within families since forever and a day.
My mother has medical power of attorney of her mother and is regularly told by the hospital they can ignore her. Now she has a letter in her back pocket from a lawyer advising this is horseshit except in extreme circumstances they're less inclined to try and pull that one.

People fight power of attorneys all the time and it has very little to do with marriage in my experience. And in my experience if the POA is signed and done correctly then its always upheld.
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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by grassy1 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:20 pm

j-mac31 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:15 pm
grassy1 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:49 pm
Leaning towards Yes,but I just need one last good arguement to convince me.
"LGBTQI people should have equal rights" isn't enough?

I need more than one line for them to earn my vote.

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by Sismis » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:55 am

grassy1 wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:20 pm
j-mac31 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:15 pm
grassy1 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:49 pm
Leaning towards Yes,but I just need one last good arguement to convince me.
"LGBTQI people should have equal rights" isn't enough?

I need more than one line for them to earn my vote.
You think people should have to beg you to get the same rights?

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by mdso » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:34 pm

Ben to answer your question... Catholic Hospital. Defacto status and legal papers are unrecognised, family steps in and has the partner removed.
Yes legal action can be taken. Can you imagine doing that? I worked with the Victorian Aids Council during the aids crisis in the eighties, that sort of behaviour was not uncommon then and sadly, is still not uncommon.

Yes it might happen to anyone and all I am doing is repeating something that has happened recently to two gay women. If it were someone I loved, I would remove the person and place them somewhere else, where they could receive visitors they wanted to be with them and have the treatment they wanted to have and have the right to refuse treatment if that's what they wanted. This needs to change.

I'm not saying this happened because of the publicity around the YES vote, as things like this have been happening for a long time. It could be coincidence. This is the third I have heard about in as many weeks. I'm saying its sad that's it is happening to anyone.
Last edited by mdso on Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by F111 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:36 pm

Why say no?

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Re: WHAT IS THIS YES/NO VOTE ABOUT?

Post by MH_Bomber » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:33 pm

Apart from the blatantly obvious reason that a gay couple be allowed to exercise the same right to get married as the straight population, there these following reasons to vote YES;

Tony Abbott, Eric Abetz, Kevin Andrews, Pauline Hanson, Cori Bernardi, Scott Morrison, Cardinal George Pell and Archbishop Denis Hart have said they 're voting No!
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